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I'll preface this by saying my wife is a full-time parent for our two children so I am very supportive of full-time parenting, but from a raw economic perspecti

I'll preface this by saying my wife is a full-time parent for our two children so I am very supportive of full-time parenting, but from a raw economic perspective a 4-1 staffing ratio (at a daycare) or 10-1 at a preschool would be a lot more efficient as the current two children we have.

ndriscoll 3y ago
Depends on whether the outcomes are the same. If it's just about keeping them alive, sure, but if more individualized attention and family bonding results in better adults (or better behaved/cheaper to educate students) down the line, there's a price for quality that needs to be accounted for.
- qudat 3y ago
  Exactly. A child is a future contributor to the workforce. If outcomes are different then this is an investment. It’s an empirical question, to be sure, but it is theoretically possible the outcomes are different.
userinanother 3y ago
In theory yes but the 4-1 has lots of overhead plus extra facilities plus taxes. Is probably closer to 3:1 after overhead and 2.5:1 after transactional taxes
- justrealist 3y ago
  I'll grant the overhead but the taxes are not a loss from a GDP perspective, that's just money shuffling, goods are still produced, services are still rendered. In-home daycare is also common too, and then there's not a ton of facility cost.
  - userinanother 3y ago
    I thought we were talking economic output. GDP isn’t a good metric to use when you compare work that generates no GDP output. Someone already mentioned that taking care of your own kid generates a net gdp loss of 1.x your income where x is the ammount you would pay to a child care facility.
    - justrealist 3y ago
      Well that's sort of a separate question, my point is that if I pay $5 for someone to cook me a hot dog, 1 hot dog is produced whether sales tax is 0% or 50%, and that's what GDP is measuring.
      - userinanother 3y ago
        The gdp measures the hot dog and the transaction costs of the hotdog so you buying the hotdog adds both hot dog, cart vendor and health inspector and permit office into the mix.
Manuel_D 3y ago
Not exactly. I'm not sure about the age of your kids, but it's not uncommon to see parents shopping and doing other chores with kids. I definitely remember being taken to the post office, grocery store, etc. When parents are taking care of kids they're not totally unproductive.
quicklime 3y ago
I don't mean for this to sound judgemental, I'm also very supportive of full-time parenting for those who want to do it. But I do feel like daycare/preschool brings us closer to the traditional "it takes a village" model of raising a child, rather than the isolated 1950s suburban housewife model. So it's not all about economic efficiencies, but also the value that society gets out of it. A child is socialised with other kids, and learns from adults other than their parents too.
- justrealist 3y ago
  The research is pretty clear that under 2 years, parental separation massively increases cortisol levels and is net negative. So we're not doing daycare at all. Our 2.5 year old does 4 hour preschool 2 days a week for social exposure etc. And other activities throughout the week. > rather than the isolated 1950s suburban housewife model I'll note, people give the 1950s crap, but actually my parents in the 50s spent the entire day outside running around the neighborhood with friends. Kids in the 50s were vastly healthier socially than kids today.
  - giantrobot 3y ago
    > Kids in the 50s were vastly healthier socially than kids today. No they weren't. Your parents just lived in a location where their socio-economic status and urban planning supported running around and playing all day. Their parents decided to build suburbs without sidewalks, mass transit availability, or stoops/porches. They did this to keep those people out. Your parents got to enjoy better urban planning as children than you and your kids.
  - johnnyanmac 3y ago
    > Kids in the 50s were vastly healthier socially than kids today. depends on your race, if we're being blunt. certain other neighborhoods were "running around the neighborhood" in a completely different context. social aspects aside, sure. I wouldn't mind the pendulum shifting away from the helicopter parent spectrum, but it really depends on your location. It could work in my current locattion, but not at most of my previous residences.

ndriscoll 3y ago

Depends on whether the outcomes are the same. If it's just about keeping them alive, sure, but if more individualized attention and family bonding results in better adults (or better behaved/cheaper to educate students) down the line, there's a price for quality that needs to be accounted for.

qudat 3y ago
Exactly. A child is a future contributor to the workforce. If outcomes are different then this is an investment. It’s an empirical question, to be sure, but it is theoretically possible the outcomes are different.

userinanother 3y ago

In theory yes but the 4-1 has lots of overhead plus extra facilities plus taxes. Is probably closer to 3:1 after overhead and 2.5:1 after transactional taxes

justrealist 3y ago
I'll grant the overhead but the taxes are not a loss from a GDP perspective, that's just money shuffling, goods are still produced, services are still rendered. In-home daycare is also common too, and then there's not a ton of facility cost.
- userinanother 3y ago
  I thought we were talking economic output. GDP isn’t a good metric to use when you compare work that generates no GDP output. Someone already mentioned that taking care of your own kid generates a net gdp loss of 1.x your income where x is the ammount you would pay to a child care facility.
  - justrealist 3y ago
    Well that's sort of a separate question, my point is that if I pay $5 for someone to cook me a hot dog, 1 hot dog is produced whether sales tax is 0% or 50%, and that's what GDP is measuring.
    - userinanother 3y ago
      The gdp measures the hot dog and the transaction costs of the hotdog so you buying the hotdog adds both hot dog, cart vendor and health inspector and permit office into the mix.

Manuel_D 3y ago

Not exactly. I'm not sure about the age of your kids, but it's not uncommon to see parents shopping and doing other chores with kids. I definitely remember being taken to the post office, grocery store, etc. When parents are taking care of kids they're not totally unproductive.

quicklime 3y ago

I don't mean for this to sound judgemental, I'm also very supportive of full-time parenting for those who want to do it. But I do feel like daycare/preschool brings us closer to the traditional "it takes a village" model of raising a child, rather than the isolated 1950s suburban housewife model. So it's not all about economic efficiencies, but also the value that society gets out of it. A child is socialised with other kids, and learns from adults other than their parents too.

justrealist 3y ago
The research is pretty clear that under 2 years, parental separation massively increases cortisol levels and is net negative. So we're not doing daycare at all. Our 2.5 year old does 4 hour preschool 2 days a week for social exposure etc. And other activities throughout the week. > rather than the isolated 1950s suburban housewife model I'll note, people give the 1950s crap, but actually my parents in the 50s spent the entire day outside running around the neighborhood with friends. Kids in the 50s were vastly healthier socially than kids today.
- giantrobot 3y ago
  > Kids in the 50s were vastly healthier socially than kids today. No they weren't. Your parents just lived in a location where their socio-economic status and urban planning supported running around and playing all day. Their parents decided to build suburbs without sidewalks, mass transit availability, or stoops/porches. They did this to keep those people out. Your parents got to enjoy better urban planning as children than you and your kids.
- johnnyanmac 3y ago
  > Kids in the 50s were vastly healthier socially than kids today. depends on your race, if we're being blunt. certain other neighborhoods were "running around the neighborhood" in a completely different context. social aspects aside, sure. I wouldn't mind the pendulum shifting away from the helicopter parent spectrum, but it really depends on your location. It could work in my current locattion, but not at most of my previous residences.