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I thought public school teachers in the US were considered to be underpaid? Certainly compared to public school teachers in South Korea, they don't earn that m

by v0cab 15y ago

I thought public school teachers in the US were considered to be underpaid? Certainly compared to public school teachers in South Korea, they don't earn that much compared to the national average salary. I don't believe there are sufficient laws in the US to protect teachers. The US's employment laws are poorly-regarded in the rest of the Western world. And what about at-will employment states? Teachers would be fired just because of accusations of wrongdoing. Cheaper to just get rid of the accused teacher and get a new one in.

yummyfajitas 15y ago
Teachers would be fired just because of accusations of wrongdoing. It would be so terrible if a teachers who rub their genitals against students, mock homosexuals and simulate sex acts, or stalk their students were fired. Thank goodness we have unions to protect these teachers and keep them in the classroom. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/06/nyregion/found-to-have-misbehaved-but-still-teaching-in-new-york-city.html?_r=1&ref=education http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/06/nyregion/found-to-have-mis... Meanwhile, everyone besides teachers can be fired if they grope their customers. The world hasn't ended for them.
- v0cab 15y ago
  From the nytimes article: "But to union officials, the right to an impartial hearing is sacrosanct, to protect teachers from losing their livelihoods because a principal or a student might have an ax to grind." An impartial hearing -- sounds good to me. We don't know that all the teachers in that article did those things you said. You're implying that we should fire them and make them leave that career, just because a kid and his friends said they did? Kids can lie, you know. [EDIT: After reading further in that article, I see some of the teachers did misbehave, but they were punished for it.] Without unions, teachers can look forwards to as much protection and fairness in the workplace as your average US restaurant server. Get on the wrong side of your boss or his son? Fired. Too many complaints from customers about you in one week? Fired. No proof required.
  - yummyfajitas 15y ago
    While putting teachers in the same boat as waiters, programmers and CEOs does sound awful, I think children will still wind up being educated. Remember, the goal here is not to ensure teachers are never incorrectly fired, it's to educate children. If a few teachers are incorrectly fired, but student performance goes up, that's a win. This is what happens in many industries. For example, if a trader or hedge fund manager gets unlucky and the market moves against him, he can be fired. Unfair individually, maybe, but in aggregate the net result is that the traders who aren't fired tend to perform better.
    - v0cab 15y ago
      CEOs? Bad example there. I am very concerned about labour rights, as that will be very important in a world of ever-fewer jobs with more competition for those jobs, for the students when they grow up, and for now, when their parents need jobs to support their family. If students can get teachers fired with just an accusation, * The students will end up with a fragmented education from a chain of supply teachers and replacements. * Teachers will have to pander to students even more than they already do, for fear that a disgruntled student will decide to cry wolf. Lessons will focus on fun, not education, and teachers will be unable to stop students from disrupting class. The comparison to a trader or hedge fund manager doesn't stand, as the market cannot decide to deliberately move against him out of spite, a need for power, or boredom. [EDIT: Forgot to mention that private companies are more motivated to care about the product. Public school administrators would be more concerned about 'liability' and eliminating a source of 'hassle', than with the quality of the product. There's little incentive for them to work to keep a good teacher who's been unfairly accused. The comparison to programmers is also not appropriate, for those same reasons.]
      - tqwcs 15y ago
        I think you are unfairly describing the situation. My friend is a teacher who readily admits it would take them about two years to get fired. Two years of essentially not doing their job. The teachers in Atlanta that were taking their students tests for them may not even end up being fired. We aren't talking about teachers not being able to be fired on a whim. We are talking about bad teachers with a history not being able to be fired.
jordanb 15y ago
They are largely underpaid, but in the past few years, people on the right have decided to target public employees in general and teachers in specific (for some reason) as being The Problem with America. Teachers' modest salaries, have, for a long time, been countered with good benefits in other areas: pensions, health care, vacation time, job security. Most working Americans in the private sector have none of those things anymore, so the right points at the teachers and says "see, this is the problem right here, these public sector health plans and pensions!"
ylem 15y ago
I think one has to look at the history of teacher's unions in the US. For example, unions were formed because women could be fired as soon as they got pregnant. The role of unions is to protect their members from arbitrary firing. In the current era, you have issues such as teaching evolution, etc. Unions can protect their members against arbitrary firing--what schools need to do is document truly atrocious behavior and then fire teachers that engage in it. However, one should consider that top scorers in PISA, such as Finland, have teacher unions--they also have well educated, well paid teachers, with a lot of autonomy.
bearmf 15y ago
You are probably referring to a New York Times article on teacher pay around the world. Korea is a clear outlier according to their data which makes one doubt the methodology used. Teachers in US are paid a decent salary. For example, in New York City they earn $50k-100k per year with good health and retirement benefits. It is not easy to get that kind of job in private sector. In NYC suburbs teachers make even more, lots of them more than $100k. These jobs are very hard to get, and most require a MSc/PhD degree.
rdl 15y ago
Good teachers are underpaid, mediocre and bad teachers are underpaid, since the industry is regulated to pay based on seniority and a strict scale, vs. merit and performance. (Same thing with government employees; there are great scientists in the government who could make 10x that much outside the government, and plenty of seat-warmers.)

by v0cab 15y ago

yummyfajitas 15y ago

Teachers would be fired just because of accusations of wrongdoing. It would be so terrible if a teachers who rub their genitals against students, mock homosexuals and simulate sex acts, or stalk their students were fired. Thank goodness we have unions to protect these teachers and keep them in the classroom. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/06/nyregion/found-to-have-misbehaved-but-still-teaching-in-new-york-city.html?_r=1&ref=education http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/06/nyregion/found-to-have-mis... Meanwhile, everyone besides teachers can be fired if they grope their customers. The world hasn't ended for them.

v0cab 15y ago
From the nytimes article: "But to union officials, the right to an impartial hearing is sacrosanct, to protect teachers from losing their livelihoods because a principal or a student might have an ax to grind." An impartial hearing -- sounds good to me. We don't know that all the teachers in that article did those things you said. You're implying that we should fire them and make them leave that career, just because a kid and his friends said they did? Kids can lie, you know. [EDIT: After reading further in that article, I see some of the teachers did misbehave, but they were punished for it.] Without unions, teachers can look forwards to as much protection and fairness in the workplace as your average US restaurant server. Get on the wrong side of your boss or his son? Fired. Too many complaints from customers about you in one week? Fired. No proof required.
- yummyfajitas 15y ago
  While putting teachers in the same boat as waiters, programmers and CEOs does sound awful, I think children will still wind up being educated. Remember, the goal here is not to ensure teachers are never incorrectly fired, it's to educate children. If a few teachers are incorrectly fired, but student performance goes up, that's a win. This is what happens in many industries. For example, if a trader or hedge fund manager gets unlucky and the market moves against him, he can be fired. Unfair individually, maybe, but in aggregate the net result is that the traders who aren't fired tend to perform better.
  - v0cab 15y ago
    CEOs? Bad example there. I am very concerned about labour rights, as that will be very important in a world of ever-fewer jobs with more competition for those jobs, for the students when they grow up, and for now, when their parents need jobs to support their family. If students can get teachers fired with just an accusation, * The students will end up with a fragmented education from a chain of supply teachers and replacements. * Teachers will have to pander to students even more than they already do, for fear that a disgruntled student will decide to cry wolf. Lessons will focus on fun, not education, and teachers will be unable to stop students from disrupting class. The comparison to a trader or hedge fund manager doesn't stand, as the market cannot decide to deliberately move against him out of spite, a need for power, or boredom. [EDIT: Forgot to mention that private companies are more motivated to care about the product. Public school administrators would be more concerned about 'liability' and eliminating a source of 'hassle', than with the quality of the product. There's little incentive for them to work to keep a good teacher who's been unfairly accused. The comparison to programmers is also not appropriate, for those same reasons.]
    - tqwcs 15y ago
      I think you are unfairly describing the situation. My friend is a teacher who readily admits it would take them about two years to get fired. Two years of essentially not doing their job. The teachers in Atlanta that were taking their students tests for them may not even end up being fired. We aren't talking about teachers not being able to be fired on a whim. We are talking about bad teachers with a history not being able to be fired.

jordanb 15y ago

They are largely underpaid, but in the past few years, people on the right have decided to target public employees in general and teachers in specific (for some reason) as being The Problem with America. Teachers' modest salaries, have, for a long time, been countered with good benefits in other areas: pensions, health care, vacation time, job security. Most working Americans in the private sector have none of those things anymore, so the right points at the teachers and says "see, this is the problem right here, these public sector health plans and pensions!"

ylem 15y ago

I think one has to look at the history of teacher's unions in the US. For example, unions were formed because women could be fired as soon as they got pregnant. The role of unions is to protect their members from arbitrary firing. In the current era, you have issues such as teaching evolution, etc. Unions can protect their members against arbitrary firing--what schools need to do is document truly atrocious behavior and then fire teachers that engage in it. However, one should consider that top scorers in PISA, such as Finland, have teacher unions--they also have well educated, well paid teachers, with a lot of autonomy.

bearmf 15y ago

You are probably referring to a New York Times article on teacher pay around the world. Korea is a clear outlier according to their data which makes one doubt the methodology used. Teachers in US are paid a decent salary. For example, in New York City they earn $50k-100k per year with good health and retirement benefits. It is not easy to get that kind of job in private sector. In NYC suburbs teachers make even more, lots of them more than $100k. These jobs are very hard to get, and most require a MSc/PhD degree.

rdl 15y ago

Good teachers are underpaid, mediocre and bad teachers are underpaid, since the industry is regulated to pay based on seniority and a strict scale, vs. merit and performance. (Same thing with government employees; there are great scientists in the government who could make 10x that much outside the government, and plenty of seat-warmers.)