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The systems in question require learning from art generated by humans. If they didn't, they could avoid all of this IP mess by learning how to draw. The supposi

The systems in question require learning from art generated by humans. If they didn't, they could avoid all of this IP mess by learning how to draw. The supposition I'm pushing back on is that humans only generate art by regurgitating what came before them and I don't see any basis for that claim. We have art formed by completely isolated societies in very distinct styles. Children draw all sorts of fanciful creatures that they've never seen in the wild or in other art. Artists have developed different techniques for capturing their work and it can resonate with people. We have prodigies capable of creating symphonies before they can do much else in the world. Sure, there's incremental evolution. But, we also have breakthrough artists inventing new techniques and art forms. It doesn't matter that a computer program can clone a power chord structure and create something that sorta sounds like Nirvana. That's not proof of creativity. Yes, it created something so it's "creative" in entirely mechanical stance. Just like solar flares will flip bits in my computer and "create" things as well. We can argue all day about what art means. It can get really philosophical really quick. I contend people can dream up new ideas and execute on them in a way that resonates with others and that they don't need to copy everyone else to do that. That given the basics (here's some paper an color pencils) people can develop skills and invent wholly unique ways to represent themselves and the world around them. That they're able to do that in isolation and without education. I point to the entirety of human civilization as my supporting evidence. I think it's reductive to claim we're just statistical models consuming media and shuffling things around. It seems to me this whole argument hinges on saying humans and these image generation tools work the same way. If they do, then teach one of these programs what it means to draw, give them a sensor network to the outside world, and let's see what they generate. That would be hugely compelling and would sidestep this whole discussion about IP whitewashing. But, that's not what's happening. Whether because of convenience or because it's the only practical way to generate art, these systems only work by training on art created by humans. That they're able to generate a final product that looks like something else made by a human shouldn't be shocking -- that's the whole basis of copying.

corethree 3y ago
>The supposition I'm pushing back on is that humans only generate art by regurgitating what came before them and I don't see any basis for that claim. I never claimed this. Art isn't a regurgitation. It's a composition of what came before plus a random seed. Humans do this. But so do LLMs. Think about it. Can you erase all forms of memory in a human until it's brain dead and expect it to produce art? No. It can't. > Children draw all sorts of fanciful creatures that they've never seen in the wild or in other art. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1136039656660684880/1169501313982267442/heynairb_a_fanciful_creatures_that_has_never_been_seen_before_i_9e5cad1e-88ab-405a-ae9c-ee5d17f58899.png?ex=6555a1f9&is=65432cf9&hm=4cca061fe55001ff3302742da263def6514c68757e74611b8fd6c8818ec64b1c& https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1136039656660684880/1... >We have art formed by completely isolated societies in very distinct styles prompt: Draw art in the style of a society or civilization that has never existed. Make the art very distinct in style such that the style is very divergent from anything that has been seen before. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1136039656660684880/1169501897967804436/heynairb_Draw_art_in_the_style_of_a_society_or_civilization_tha_eb148cef-ec66-413f-8e7d-5e7366617e12.png?ex=6555a284&is=65432d84&hm=336879f2783887c663352850db104c1ef885420f4ca0bb89ad77a0719b1a0d35& https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1136039656660684880/1... >It seems to me this whole argument hinges on saying humans and these image generation tools work the same way. If they do, then teach one of these programs what it means to draw, give them a sensor network to the outside world, and let's see what they generate. No. The argument hinges on something far more insidious. If I showed you two pieces of art side by side.... One was AI generated in seconds and the other one was created through pure passion and hours and hours of hard work and toil. If you can't tell one was AI generated then all that toil and passion is useless.
corethree 3y ago
>https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1136039656660684880/1169503430079955006/heynairb_something_illogical_765b59f4-9aa0-4db7-b498-c0d867ed12a7.png?ex=6555a3f2&is=65432ef2&hm=d0ba29b2aebec36ad0f4210875b25a3d9bcf8a217b3be5d5bc7043611c49daaf& https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1136039656660684880/1... Take a look at the image on the lower right hand corner. That is indisputably original. The badge doesn't exist anywhere else and the alien form with one entire leg jutting out of the torso has never been done before. We know that this one legged creature is entirely original because it doesn't exist in any of the shows. This is the key how you know LLMs aren't regurgitating stuff. It's trying to reproduce something from a flawed understanding of reality. A regurgitation would get things truly correct, but a one legged human is a creative error due to a lack of understanding. The LLM doesn't understand reality as completely and as cohesively as we do but it understands an aspect of it enough that it can produce art that mostly works. The LLM is definitely creating stuff from pure thought. These things are not copies and that's what you don't get. The hype for LLMs is so over the top that it looks like the latest outrage from something that occurred on social media. What you and other people are missing is that we crossed a certain AI threshold here. This isn't mere regurgitation.

corethree 3y ago

>The supposition I'm pushing back on is that humans only generate art by regurgitating what came before them and I don't see any basis for that claim. I never claimed this. Art isn't a regurgitation. It's a composition of what came before plus a random seed. Humans do this. But so do LLMs. Think about it. Can you erase all forms of memory in a human until it's brain dead and expect it to produce art? No. It can't. > Children draw all sorts of fanciful creatures that they've never seen in the wild or in other art. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1136039656660684880/1169501313982267442/heynairb_a_fanciful_creatures_that_has_never_been_seen_before_i_9e5cad1e-88ab-405a-ae9c-ee5d17f58899.png?ex=6555a1f9&is=65432cf9&hm=4cca061fe55001ff3302742da263def6514c68757e74611b8fd6c8818ec64b1c& https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1136039656660684880/1... >We have art formed by completely isolated societies in very distinct styles prompt: Draw art in the style of a society or civilization that has never existed. Make the art very distinct in style such that the style is very divergent from anything that has been seen before. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1136039656660684880/1169501897967804436/heynairb_Draw_art_in_the_style_of_a_society_or_civilization_tha_eb148cef-ec66-413f-8e7d-5e7366617e12.png?ex=6555a284&is=65432d84&hm=336879f2783887c663352850db104c1ef885420f4ca0bb89ad77a0719b1a0d35& https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1136039656660684880/1... >It seems to me this whole argument hinges on saying humans and these image generation tools work the same way. If they do, then teach one of these programs what it means to draw, give them a sensor network to the outside world, and let's see what they generate. No. The argument hinges on something far more insidious. If I showed you two pieces of art side by side.... One was AI generated in seconds and the other one was created through pure passion and hours and hours of hard work and toil. If you can't tell one was AI generated then all that toil and passion is useless.

corethree 3y ago

>https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1136039656660684880/1169503430079955006/heynairb_something_illogical_765b59f4-9aa0-4db7-b498-c0d867ed12a7.png?ex=6555a3f2&is=65432ef2&hm=d0ba29b2aebec36ad0f4210875b25a3d9bcf8a217b3be5d5bc7043611c49daaf& https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1136039656660684880/1... Take a look at the image on the lower right hand corner. That is indisputably original. The badge doesn't exist anywhere else and the alien form with one entire leg jutting out of the torso has never been done before. We know that this one legged creature is entirely original because it doesn't exist in any of the shows. This is the key how you know LLMs aren't regurgitating stuff. It's trying to reproduce something from a flawed understanding of reality. A regurgitation would get things truly correct, but a one legged human is a creative error due to a lack of understanding. The LLM doesn't understand reality as completely and as cohesively as we do but it understands an aspect of it enough that it can produce art that mostly works. The LLM is definitely creating stuff from pure thought. These things are not copies and that's what you don't get. The hype for LLMs is so over the top that it looks like the latest outrage from something that occurred on social media. What you and other people are missing is that we crossed a certain AI threshold here. This isn't mere regurgitation.