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People are gonna bash for complaining about 350k, but you're directionally right; the system is fucked up. The question is whether people can expect a reasonabl

People are gonna bash for complaining about 350k, but you're directionally right; the system is fucked up. The question is whether people can expect a reasonable retirement by working within the system. I think you can make the same argument just by comparing the median income with median expenses, and then actually seeing: can those people max out their 401k's? Do they even have 401k's? Can they max out their Roth's? If they do, what will they have when they retire? Is it enough? I would bet that in those sorts of scenarios, we're further away from "enough" than we used to be.

trgn 3y ago
The numbers dont jibe with reality. Yes, 80k (or whatever the median is) feels low, but people are constantly - in reality - retiring, vacationing, sending their kids to school, buying cars, eating out, ... on that income. There's a huge disconnect, I don't know where it stems from. The average/median american is not living in destitution, at the brink of collapse. The fact that 350k feels low, is, I don't know, weird (although, like you, I understand that directionally it _feels_ about right).
- tunesmith 3y ago
  I met with a fee-only fiduciary financial planner a while back. This was after several years of making income that I knew was above average, even somewhat above average in tech. We plotted out our expenses (which aren't exorbitant), plugged in our account balances, talked about wanting to retire maybe in our mid-late 50s rather than 65. Mind you, this is me maxing out 401k and Roth almost every year, and saving excess into a taxable "retirement" account as well. We answer a bunch more advanced questions, they press the button that runs all the Monte Carlo scenarios, and the result was... we were basically on target. We weren't on the road to fuck-you money, but we were on a road to be able to retire in the desired timeframe and meet our current expenses, maybe with a couple of vacations per year added on top. And I can't explain the emotional reaction I had. Like, I was relieved and proud that I had done a good job saving, but... I also knew that I was far above average in income and saving, and even with that was only "on target" rather than exceeding. I eventually spluttered out my words to the financial planner, asking about all the other people out there that make less and aren't in a position to see financial planners, and with a sad look on his face, he simply said: "It is going to change society."
  - trgn 3y ago
    It's scary. But are families really now more poor than ever, that unlike today/before nobody will be able to retire? I think there's a huge difference in baseline cost. A lot of people on high incomes have huge spending jumps, that most just don't. e.g. the vacation is international, the house is twice as big, or in the "good" neighborhood, the car is big, the school is private, the kids have trusts, ... At all that up, and yeah, 350k is barely enough. Take all that away, and 80k is solid. > "It is going to change society." socialism (we'll take from thee) or fascism (don't you dare take from me). America is in for a rough ride if he's right.
    - tunesmith 3y ago
      I think I'm also a bit sensitized because my partner is a medical social worker and regularly comes across the people that don't retire. People that can retire don't tend to hear about the experiences of the people that don't. It's a long slog of scrambling to survive and earn while physically able, cutting expenses, cutting them more, qualifying for aid, getting into medical difficulties, spending down, qualifying for medicaid, and then... well, it's a journey that a lot of people would wave off as a normal way to live and die. Big question: does that happen to people who made median income? More than before?
    - ZephyrBlu 3y ago
      Exactly, with this topic it's impossible to have a calibrated discussion because everyone has a different baseline. Agree that "you need a lot more money" feels directionally correct, but at the same time complaining about $350k is dumb. At that level of income it's entirely down to your lifestyle choices. A lot of things people spending money on feels like status signalling. "I make $x, therefore I need to look like I made $x". Cars, private school, massive house, yearly international vacations, etc all feel over the top to me. If you want to have it all, yes it costs a shit ton.
      - closeparen 3y ago
        If the income is contingent on showing up to work in a high-cost region, I don't think we can explain away the payment/interest/taxes/insurance on a modest, reasonably located home in that region as "lifestyle choice."
- closeparen 3y ago
  The median American lives in exurban Dayton, OH or something. Living somewhere with growing industry and career prospects is a completely different thing. The typical homeowner in a coastal metro doesn't have a massive income, but does have a million plus in home equity. You as a young adult will need dramatically more labor income to reach the same lifestyle on ~$0 wealth. You will even need more labor income than they had capital gains, because high-end labor is taxed much more heavily (~40% effective) than capital gains on primary residence ($500k exemption then ~20%).
  - trgn 3y ago
    I don't disagree. Come to think of it, Dave Chapelle lives in exurban Dayton. Must not be too shabby.

trgn 3y ago

The numbers dont jibe with reality. Yes, 80k (or whatever the median is) feels low, but people are constantly - in reality - retiring, vacationing, sending their kids to school, buying cars, eating out, ... on that income. There's a huge disconnect, I don't know where it stems from. The average/median american is not living in destitution, at the brink of collapse. The fact that 350k feels low, is, I don't know, weird (although, like you, I understand that directionally it _feels_ about right).

tunesmith 3y ago
I met with a fee-only fiduciary financial planner a while back. This was after several years of making income that I knew was above average, even somewhat above average in tech. We plotted out our expenses (which aren't exorbitant), plugged in our account balances, talked about wanting to retire maybe in our mid-late 50s rather than 65. Mind you, this is me maxing out 401k and Roth almost every year, and saving excess into a taxable "retirement" account as well. We answer a bunch more advanced questions, they press the button that runs all the Monte Carlo scenarios, and the result was... we were basically on target. We weren't on the road to fuck-you money, but we were on a road to be able to retire in the desired timeframe and meet our current expenses, maybe with a couple of vacations per year added on top. And I can't explain the emotional reaction I had. Like, I was relieved and proud that I had done a good job saving, but... I also knew that I was far above average in income and saving, and even with that was only "on target" rather than exceeding. I eventually spluttered out my words to the financial planner, asking about all the other people out there that make less and aren't in a position to see financial planners, and with a sad look on his face, he simply said: "It is going to change society."
- trgn 3y ago
  It's scary. But are families really now more poor than ever, that unlike today/before nobody will be able to retire? I think there's a huge difference in baseline cost. A lot of people on high incomes have huge spending jumps, that most just don't. e.g. the vacation is international, the house is twice as big, or in the "good" neighborhood, the car is big, the school is private, the kids have trusts, ... At all that up, and yeah, 350k is barely enough. Take all that away, and 80k is solid. > "It is going to change society." socialism (we'll take from thee) or fascism (don't you dare take from me). America is in for a rough ride if he's right.
  - tunesmith 3y ago
    I think I'm also a bit sensitized because my partner is a medical social worker and regularly comes across the people that don't retire. People that can retire don't tend to hear about the experiences of the people that don't. It's a long slog of scrambling to survive and earn while physically able, cutting expenses, cutting them more, qualifying for aid, getting into medical difficulties, spending down, qualifying for medicaid, and then... well, it's a journey that a lot of people would wave off as a normal way to live and die. Big question: does that happen to people who made median income? More than before?
  - ZephyrBlu 3y ago
    Exactly, with this topic it's impossible to have a calibrated discussion because everyone has a different baseline. Agree that "you need a lot more money" feels directionally correct, but at the same time complaining about $350k is dumb. At that level of income it's entirely down to your lifestyle choices. A lot of things people spending money on feels like status signalling. "I make $x, therefore I need to look like I made $x". Cars, private school, massive house, yearly international vacations, etc all feel over the top to me. If you want to have it all, yes it costs a shit ton.
    - closeparen 3y ago
      If the income is contingent on showing up to work in a high-cost region, I don't think we can explain away the payment/interest/taxes/insurance on a modest, reasonably located home in that region as "lifestyle choice."
closeparen 3y ago
The median American lives in exurban Dayton, OH or something. Living somewhere with growing industry and career prospects is a completely different thing. The typical homeowner in a coastal metro doesn't have a massive income, but does have a million plus in home equity. You as a young adult will need dramatically more labor income to reach the same lifestyle on ~$0 wealth. You will even need more labor income than they had capital gains, because high-end labor is taxed much more heavily (~40% effective) than capital gains on primary residence ($500k exemption then ~20%).
- trgn 3y ago
  I don't disagree. Come to think of it, Dave Chapelle lives in exurban Dayton. Must not be too shabby.