5 ms·

In the US, the limiting factor in heat pump adoption isn't technical. It's cost. $18-25K for a minisplit with 2 heads is the norm in Seattle. Likely cheaper in

by xxpor 3y ago

In the US, the limiting factor in heat pump adoption isn't technical. It's cost. $18-25K for a minisplit with 2 heads is the norm in Seattle. Likely cheaper in other locations, but not by much.

SketchySeaBeast 3y ago
Apparently it only cost Oyvind $2,630 including installation? I'd do that tomorrow if that were the case. I'd love a heat pump with a gas backup when we got our week or two of < -30C.
- xxpor 3y ago
  Seriously. I'd be screaming from the rooftops for everyone to get one.
- amalcon 3y ago
  > The state now subsidizes heat pumps, which in 2022 were used in just three percent of homes, and sales are beginning to take off. That's probably not the only reason for the difference, but it is probably one reason.
  - NorwegianDude 3y ago
    That's not a part of the reason. Air-air heat pumps, exhaust air heat pumps and air-water heat pumps is so common that they are excluded. Only new and emerging tech on the market are subsidized. When adoption increases they remove it as the goal is to decrease cost of newer and less common methods.
- einr 3y ago
  Apparently it only cost Oyvind $2,630 including installation? Beware that the article is not very clear and talks about "heat pumps" as a general concept when the term actually encompasses a bunch of different and very differently priced things. What Øyvind gets for $2,630 including installation is a wall-mounted air-to-air heat pump like this one: https://www.polarpumpen.se/varmepumpar/luftvarmepump/mitsubishi-electric-hero-20-ln25-luftvarmepump/p-1547702 https://www.polarpumpen.se/varmepumpar/luftvarmepump/mitsubi... Something like this will be great for heating a single large room, a small house with an open floor plan, or a secondary space like a garage, but is not a system that will handle an entire normal-sized house. But yes, you can get it for $2,630 including installation and it is very efficient at what it does.
- OldSchool 3y ago
  The HVAC industry in the US enjoys massive gross margins on this equipment. Prices are supported primarily by licensing laws. You can't legally break into the business, but DIY on your own house is entirely possible: the equipment is available for 1/4 to 1/3 of the "installed" price and some of the more climate-friendly refrigerants do not require an EPA license to purchase. Yes, the work involves electrical, light plumbing and welding, a specialized tool or two, attention to detail, and definitely physical labor, but for a lot of engineers that's just fun stuff to do on a weekend - really fun stuff when you save over $10K per installed system (at the 3-5 ton unit capacity level.)
  - SketchySeaBeast 3y ago
    Not just electrical, 240 V electrical and a possible 200 Amp service upgrade. The really fun "it'll kill you dead" electrical.
    - OldSchool 3y ago
      The 240V electrical isn’t as scary as it sounds; individually, the hots are no more “hot” relative to ground than a 120V hot (still demands respect!) Certainly it’s not for everyone or even every engineer but I guess my point was that if you’ve already done most of these things yourself it’s not a huge leap to DIY your own HVAC install compared to the financial incentive, especially if your house has more than one system.
    - cogman10 3y ago
      120V will kill you dead, so will 60V.
      - SketchySeaBeast 3y ago
        True.
      - sidewndr46 3y ago
        so will 12 volts if conducted through your heart in the right place
- erikprotagonist 3y ago
  Checking the prices here in Norway a Mitsubishi Uwano 8700 (Mitsubishi's most high-end model) costs 2700 USD before any government rebates. It guaranteed to work down to -30C, but has been tested down to -36C as well. At -25C it produce 6000W. The "SCOP" value of the Mitsubishi is 5.2, so over the heating season it should produce 5.2x as much heat as you otherwise would get for the same amount of electricity. Most of the heatpumps available are about 1200USD cheaper, but only go down to -25C, which really is plenty where most people live (not too far from the coast). Installation typically costs around 600-900USD it seems. Given our 25% sales tax and high wages it should be considerably cheaper in the US.
  - SketchySeaBeast 3y ago
    Ah, that's a single room heater, not a whole house, eh?
    - bjornasm 3y ago
      It has a max capacity of 8700W, if that is just enough to heat a single room you have to look into insulating house better.
      - SketchySeaBeast 3y ago
        Well, our whole house needs about 70,000 BTU, which is ~20,000 W or 10,000 W (assuming it's still 2x efficient) input at -35 C, but our basement and second floor won't care if the living room is the only area getting heat.
    - mitthrowaway2 3y ago
      What makes you think it's a single room heater? It looks like a mini-split system to me.
LazyMans 3y ago
A ducted air-source heat-pump shouldn't cost more than 10% on top of a regular AC system. In my case, the heat pump was the same price as the AC only system. Paid about $8k for a new 1.5ton Lennox condenser and furnace on a townhome. Only options are for electric heat on this property. Re-used existing ducting, line set, and power. Old condenser was toast and an r-12 system. Dual fuel/hybrid systems will be pricier, but not needed in Georgia. If designed right, the aux heat will be more than enough to supplement. Poorly sized installations in very poorly insulated homes will need more supplemental heat.
- rcxdude 3y ago
  This. Heat pumps are just AC run backwards, and it doesn't take much to make an AC able to run in both directions. The only thing is if you need a lot more heating than you need cooling you may need a larger system. But because they're new a different, as well as in demand, you get price gouging on installation compared to an AC in a lot of places.
  - LazyMans 3y ago
    Subsidies are a real problem, the installers are jacking up the prices, instead of the real subsidies being passed to the consumer. Same thing happened with EV subsidies. You have Kia dealers marking up by exactly the amount the tax credit returns to you.
  - mmaurizi 3y ago
    If you need a lot more heat than cooling, you can't just get a larger system, you have to also go from single-stage to 2/multi stage or inverter-based, so that you can scale down in the summer so you don't cool too quickly and not dehumidify enough.
- sidewndr46 3y ago
  How did you just decide every sales man in North America is limited to a 10% markup on heat pumps?
xnx 3y ago
I've seen similar prohibitively expensive price quotes. While not identical, there are many <$1000 mini split heat pumps on Amazon (DIY installation of course).
camdat 3y ago
Highly recommend DIY'ing it. MrCool et. al are all within the range of someone willing that can handle electrical work on their home. 3 head minisplit (also in Seattle) shipped for ~4.6k
Sohcahtoa82 3y ago
Jeez...I bought a hybrid gas + heat pump system a couple years ago for my house in Portland and it was $17K. It's an overkill system, for sure, but the gas was useful when one of the pressure switches in the heat pump failed (covered under warranty!) so I had no heat when it was < 50 degrees outside. Just switched the thermostat to "emergency heat" to force the use of gas, and I stayed warm.

by xxpor 3y ago

In the US, the limiting factor in heat pump adoption isn't technical. It's cost. $18-25K for a minisplit with 2 heads is the norm in Seattle. Likely cheaper in other locations, but not by much.

SketchySeaBeast 3y ago

Apparently it only cost Oyvind $2,630 including installation? I'd do that tomorrow if that were the case. I'd love a heat pump with a gas backup when we got our week or two of < -30C.

xxpor 3y ago
Seriously. I'd be screaming from the rooftops for everyone to get one.
amalcon 3y ago
> The state now subsidizes heat pumps, which in 2022 were used in just three percent of homes, and sales are beginning to take off. That's probably not the only reason for the difference, but it is probably one reason.
- NorwegianDude 3y ago
  That's not a part of the reason. Air-air heat pumps, exhaust air heat pumps and air-water heat pumps is so common that they are excluded. Only new and emerging tech on the market are subsidized. When adoption increases they remove it as the goal is to decrease cost of newer and less common methods.
einr 3y ago
Apparently it only cost Oyvind $2,630 including installation? Beware that the article is not very clear and talks about "heat pumps" as a general concept when the term actually encompasses a bunch of different and very differently priced things. What Øyvind gets for $2,630 including installation is a wall-mounted air-to-air heat pump like this one: https://www.polarpumpen.se/varmepumpar/luftvarmepump/mitsubishi-electric-hero-20-ln25-luftvarmepump/p-1547702 https://www.polarpumpen.se/varmepumpar/luftvarmepump/mitsubi... Something like this will be great for heating a single large room, a small house with an open floor plan, or a secondary space like a garage, but is not a system that will handle an entire normal-sized house. But yes, you can get it for $2,630 including installation and it is very efficient at what it does.
OldSchool 3y ago
The HVAC industry in the US enjoys massive gross margins on this equipment. Prices are supported primarily by licensing laws. You can't legally break into the business, but DIY on your own house is entirely possible: the equipment is available for 1/4 to 1/3 of the "installed" price and some of the more climate-friendly refrigerants do not require an EPA license to purchase. Yes, the work involves electrical, light plumbing and welding, a specialized tool or two, attention to detail, and definitely physical labor, but for a lot of engineers that's just fun stuff to do on a weekend - really fun stuff when you save over $10K per installed system (at the 3-5 ton unit capacity level.)
- SketchySeaBeast 3y ago
  Not just electrical, 240 V electrical and a possible 200 Amp service upgrade. The really fun "it'll kill you dead" electrical.
  - OldSchool 3y ago
    The 240V electrical isn’t as scary as it sounds; individually, the hots are no more “hot” relative to ground than a 120V hot (still demands respect!) Certainly it’s not for everyone or even every engineer but I guess my point was that if you’ve already done most of these things yourself it’s not a huge leap to DIY your own HVAC install compared to the financial incentive, especially if your house has more than one system.
  - cogman10 3y ago
    120V will kill you dead, so will 60V.
    - SketchySeaBeast 3y ago
      True.
    - sidewndr46 3y ago
      so will 12 volts if conducted through your heart in the right place
erikprotagonist 3y ago
Checking the prices here in Norway a Mitsubishi Uwano 8700 (Mitsubishi's most high-end model) costs 2700 USD before any government rebates. It guaranteed to work down to -30C, but has been tested down to -36C as well. At -25C it produce 6000W. The "SCOP" value of the Mitsubishi is 5.2, so over the heating season it should produce 5.2x as much heat as you otherwise would get for the same amount of electricity. Most of the heatpumps available are about 1200USD cheaper, but only go down to -25C, which really is plenty where most people live (not too far from the coast). Installation typically costs around 600-900USD it seems. Given our 25% sales tax and high wages it should be considerably cheaper in the US.
- SketchySeaBeast 3y ago
  Ah, that's a single room heater, not a whole house, eh?
  - bjornasm 3y ago
    It has a max capacity of 8700W, if that is just enough to heat a single room you have to look into insulating house better.
    - SketchySeaBeast 3y ago
      Well, our whole house needs about 70,000 BTU, which is ~20,000 W or 10,000 W (assuming it's still 2x efficient) input at -35 C, but our basement and second floor won't care if the living room is the only area getting heat.
  - mitthrowaway2 3y ago
    What makes you think it's a single room heater? It looks like a mini-split system to me.

LazyMans 3y ago

A ducted air-source heat-pump shouldn't cost more than 10% on top of a regular AC system. In my case, the heat pump was the same price as the AC only system. Paid about $8k for a new 1.5ton Lennox condenser and furnace on a townhome. Only options are for electric heat on this property. Re-used existing ducting, line set, and power. Old condenser was toast and an r-12 system. Dual fuel/hybrid systems will be pricier, but not needed in Georgia. If designed right, the aux heat will be more than enough to supplement. Poorly sized installations in very poorly insulated homes will need more supplemental heat.

rcxdude 3y ago
This. Heat pumps are just AC run backwards, and it doesn't take much to make an AC able to run in both directions. The only thing is if you need a lot more heating than you need cooling you may need a larger system. But because they're new a different, as well as in demand, you get price gouging on installation compared to an AC in a lot of places.
- LazyMans 3y ago
  Subsidies are a real problem, the installers are jacking up the prices, instead of the real subsidies being passed to the consumer. Same thing happened with EV subsidies. You have Kia dealers marking up by exactly the amount the tax credit returns to you.
- mmaurizi 3y ago
  If you need a lot more heat than cooling, you can't just get a larger system, you have to also go from single-stage to 2/multi stage or inverter-based, so that you can scale down in the summer so you don't cool too quickly and not dehumidify enough.
sidewndr46 3y ago
How did you just decide every sales man in North America is limited to a 10% markup on heat pumps?

xnx 3y ago

I've seen similar prohibitively expensive price quotes. While not identical, there are many <$1000 mini split heat pumps on Amazon (DIY installation of course).

camdat 3y ago

Highly recommend DIY'ing it. MrCool et. al are all within the range of someone willing that can handle electrical work on their home. 3 head minisplit (also in Seattle) shipped for ~4.6k

Sohcahtoa82 3y ago

Jeez...I bought a hybrid gas + heat pump system a couple years ago for my house in Portland and it was $17K. It's an overkill system, for sure, but the gas was useful when one of the pressure switches in the heat pump failed (covered under warranty!) so I had no heat when it was < 50 degrees outside. Just switched the thermostat to "emergency heat" to force the use of gas, and I stayed warm.