4 ms·

Nowhere did I assert that this was the parent's arguement. I didn't represent his position at all. My question adds context that changes the weight of the par

Nowhere did I assert that this was the parent's arguement. I didn't represent his position at all. My question adds context that changes the weight of the parent's assertions. What I wrote isn't even an argument, so it can't be a straw man.

olalonde 15y ago
By asking a question in the negative form ("don't you think...") you are implicitly asserting what follows is your interlocutor's opinion. If that's not your intention, don't ask the question in negative form. In this case: > Do you think that decades of isolationist Maoism had more influence on the rural poverty in China than US and British protectionism? or even better: > On another note, do you think that decades of isolationist Maoism had more influence on the rural poverty in China than US and British protectionism?
- rbarooah 15y ago
  By asking a question in the negative form ("don't you think...") you are implicitly asserting what follows is your interlocutor's opinion. This is where you are wrong. By phrasing it in the negative form I am implicitly asserting that I think that what follows is not my interlocutors opinion. So, no straw man.
  - olalonde 15y ago
    Oops, forgot the "not" there. The rest still holds.
    - rbarooah 15y ago
      No, not a word of what you said holds. You're flat out wrong, and it's clear that you don't understand what a strawman is. It is more than just 'misrepresenting' your opponent's argument, which in any case I didn't do. A straw man is where you present a weakened form of your opponent's argument in order to more easily defeat it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man As you have now acknowledged, I did not present any form of my opponent's argument at any time, let alone argue against it. What I did was to ask a question to put his statements into context.
      - olalonde 15y ago
        > Don't you think that decades of isolationist Maoism had more influence on the rural poverty in China than US and British protectionism? This sentence implies that your opponent's position is: "US and British protectionism didn't have more influence on the rural poverty in China than decades of isolationist Maoism." Perhaps you are not a native English speaker and didn't know the implications of using a negative form question. Regardless, you were attempting to use this misrepresented position to win an argument as you later demonstrated in the thread. All conditions are met to qualify your comment as a straw man fallacy.
        rbarooah 15y ago
        That's the second time you've failed to comprehend the use of a negative. I suggest you reread what you've written. The rest of the thread doesn't show me attempting to win any argument. I suggest rereading that too. Whichever way my interlocutor responded to my question would neither invalidate his own position, nor 'win' an argument for me. You are mistaking this form of discussion for a straw man because you are seeing things in black and white, when instead the question was intended to provide context. Sometimes people ask provocative questions in order to better understand where other people are coming from. Dialog consists of more than just direct argument. Not every exchange is about gaining rhetorical advantage. If you try playing back the comments in your head as if they are being spoken by a collegial group involved in a discussion, you'll see what I mean. Your judgement is incorrect because you have misidentified the nature of the conversation. You are imagining there to be an argument where instead there is actually a discussion. And on this note, do you really think it's helpful to throw comments like "straw man" into conversations you aren't constructively participating in?
        olalonde 15y ago
        > That's the second time you've failed to comprehend the use of a negative. I suggest you reread what you've written. You are right, thanks for correcting me, I'm a bit tired. Luckily, it was just an example and not central to my point. The key point here is that this way of formulating a question attributes an opinion to your opponent that he may or may not have. Fixed it: "Decades of isolationist Maoism didn't have more influence on the rural poverty in China than US and British protectionism." > The rest of the thread doesn't show me attempting to win any argument. I suggest rereading that too. At this point, there's nothing I can do but question your intellectual honesty. The least I can say is that you come across as someone who disagrees with your interlocutor's opinion. If you are not willing to admit that, I will call this conversation over. > And on this note, do you really think it's helpful to throw comments like "straw man" into conversations you aren't constructively participating in? Yes. Fallacies are subtle and it's important to highlight them.

olalonde 15y ago

By asking a question in the negative form ("don't you think...") you are implicitly asserting what follows is your interlocutor's opinion. If that's not your intention, don't ask the question in negative form. In this case: > Do you think that decades of isolationist Maoism had more influence on the rural poverty in China than US and British protectionism? or even better: > On another note, do you think that decades of isolationist Maoism had more influence on the rural poverty in China than US and British protectionism?

rbarooah 15y ago
By asking a question in the negative form ("don't you think...") you are implicitly asserting what follows is your interlocutor's opinion. This is where you are wrong. By phrasing it in the negative form I am implicitly asserting that I think that what follows is not my interlocutors opinion. So, no straw man.
- olalonde 15y ago
  Oops, forgot the "not" there. The rest still holds.
  - rbarooah 15y ago
    No, not a word of what you said holds. You're flat out wrong, and it's clear that you don't understand what a strawman is. It is more than just 'misrepresenting' your opponent's argument, which in any case I didn't do. A straw man is where you present a weakened form of your opponent's argument in order to more easily defeat it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man As you have now acknowledged, I did not present any form of my opponent's argument at any time, let alone argue against it. What I did was to ask a question to put his statements into context.
    - olalonde 15y ago
      > Don't you think that decades of isolationist Maoism had more influence on the rural poverty in China than US and British protectionism? This sentence implies that your opponent's position is: "US and British protectionism didn't have more influence on the rural poverty in China than decades of isolationist Maoism." Perhaps you are not a native English speaker and didn't know the implications of using a negative form question. Regardless, you were attempting to use this misrepresented position to win an argument as you later demonstrated in the thread. All conditions are met to qualify your comment as a straw man fallacy.
      - rbarooah 15y ago
        That's the second time you've failed to comprehend the use of a negative. I suggest you reread what you've written. The rest of the thread doesn't show me attempting to win any argument. I suggest rereading that too. Whichever way my interlocutor responded to my question would neither invalidate his own position, nor 'win' an argument for me. You are mistaking this form of discussion for a straw man because you are seeing things in black and white, when instead the question was intended to provide context. Sometimes people ask provocative questions in order to better understand where other people are coming from. Dialog consists of more than just direct argument. Not every exchange is about gaining rhetorical advantage. If you try playing back the comments in your head as if they are being spoken by a collegial group involved in a discussion, you'll see what I mean. Your judgement is incorrect because you have misidentified the nature of the conversation. You are imagining there to be an argument where instead there is actually a discussion. And on this note, do you really think it's helpful to throw comments like "straw man" into conversations you aren't constructively participating in?
        olalonde 15y ago
        > That's the second time you've failed to comprehend the use of a negative. I suggest you reread what you've written. You are right, thanks for correcting me, I'm a bit tired. Luckily, it was just an example and not central to my point. The key point here is that this way of formulating a question attributes an opinion to your opponent that he may or may not have. Fixed it: "Decades of isolationist Maoism didn't have more influence on the rural poverty in China than US and British protectionism." > The rest of the thread doesn't show me attempting to win any argument. I suggest rereading that too. At this point, there's nothing I can do but question your intellectual honesty. The least I can say is that you come across as someone who disagrees with your interlocutor's opinion. If you are not willing to admit that, I will call this conversation over. > And on this note, do you really think it's helpful to throw comments like "straw man" into conversations you aren't constructively participating in? Yes. Fallacies are subtle and it's important to highlight them.