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> Well meaning people would rather prevent trans prisoners today from being raped than ciswomen prisoners tomorrow, despite the obvious asymmetry of suffering i

> Well meaning people would rather prevent trans prisoners today from being raped than ciswomen prisoners tomorrow, despite the obvious asymmetry of suffering in those scenarios. What asymmetry is that? I provided a statistic for the abuse trans women currently suffer in the system, but no one else has provided anything but anecdotes and appeals to some sort of common sense. It, and correct me if I'm wrong, feels like you're giving a similar sort of special reverence to cis women who suffer sexual assault than trans. To be clear, I think sexual assault is bad all around and I hate the idea of abusers slipping being enabled, but it's somehow acceptable that many many trans women are abused instead of the potential for even one more cis woman to be sexually abused in prison than there already are (let's not kid ourselves here, scads of abuse already happens). I guess the answer to this particular trolley problem for many people is to not even consider pulling the lever because it's 5 trans women but one cis.

suoduandao3 3y ago
If there were no gender segregated prisons, ciswomen's rates of assault would be like transwomen's today, I don't need to point to a study to convince a neutral bystander of that. Given the percentage of women who are Trans in the US is about 1%, the trolly problem at hand is more like 1 trans woman and 99 ciswomen. Damn right I wouldn't consider pulling that lever. This story is the result of two widely accepted proposals: -Transwomen belong in women's spaces. -The only moral response to someone coming out as trans is to affirm their new identity. If you agree with both proposals, and many people do, that means in practice you believe one transgender woman is worth >99 cisgender women. No one says that out loud, but prioritizing victimhood means that's the calculus they deal in. Adding more exceptions to problematic examples like this one doesn't address the root problem with that hierarchy of values.
- SketchySeaBeast 3y ago
  You're saying by allowing trans women into prisons 99 ciswomen will be raped for every trans woman right now (who are sexually assaulted at 13x the average prison population)? If we want to have this discussion, please provide some actual data about the rate trans women sexually assault women in women's prisons.
  - suoduandao3 3y ago
    You keep conflating transwomen with men lying about being transwomen. Do you not believe that a male rapist would lie about being a transwomen if it gave him access to a large population of vulnerable women?
- pelch 3y ago
  At least in the UK, data from the Ministry of Justice shows that trans-identifying male prisoners are significantly more likely than other men to be incarcerated for sex offences. There is also no data whatsoever indicating that if a man calls himself a woman, then he poses any less risk to women than other men. I agree that prisons need to stay sex-segregated, or revert back to being so where authorities have made this abominable ideological error of incarcerating men in the women's prisons.

suoduandao3 3y ago

If there were no gender segregated prisons, ciswomen's rates of assault would be like transwomen's today, I don't need to point to a study to convince a neutral bystander of that. Given the percentage of women who are Trans in the US is about 1%, the trolly problem at hand is more like 1 trans woman and 99 ciswomen. Damn right I wouldn't consider pulling that lever. This story is the result of two widely accepted proposals: -Transwomen belong in women's spaces. -The only moral response to someone coming out as trans is to affirm their new identity. If you agree with both proposals, and many people do, that means in practice you believe one transgender woman is worth >99 cisgender women. No one says that out loud, but prioritizing victimhood means that's the calculus they deal in. Adding more exceptions to problematic examples like this one doesn't address the root problem with that hierarchy of values.

SketchySeaBeast 3y ago
You're saying by allowing trans women into prisons 99 ciswomen will be raped for every trans woman right now (who are sexually assaulted at 13x the average prison population)? If we want to have this discussion, please provide some actual data about the rate trans women sexually assault women in women's prisons.
- suoduandao3 3y ago
  You keep conflating transwomen with men lying about being transwomen. Do you not believe that a male rapist would lie about being a transwomen if it gave him access to a large population of vulnerable women?
pelch 3y ago
At least in the UK, data from the Ministry of Justice shows that trans-identifying male prisoners are significantly more likely than other men to be incarcerated for sex offences. There is also no data whatsoever indicating that if a man calls himself a woman, then he poses any less risk to women than other men. I agree that prisons need to stay sex-segregated, or revert back to being so where authorities have made this abominable ideological error of incarcerating men in the women's prisons.