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Can you expand a bit on what makes langchain tech-debt? Ive been dabbling for a few days and have seen it referenced but I've never used it. Looking at it, it s

Can you expand a bit on what makes langchain tech-debt? Ive been dabbling for a few days and have seen it referenced but I've never used it. Looking at it, it seems focused on being a library for interacting with LLMs, and a pile of utils to go with that library. I tend not to use "library and utils" packages for my own personal projects, but beyond that I don't see on the surface what makes langchain tech-debt. Can you explain more?

minimaxir 3y ago
I'm glad you asked because I wrote an entire blog post on it a few months ago! https://minimaxir.com/2023/07/langchain-problem/ https://minimaxir.com/2023/07/langchain-problem/ That post also gets a very surprising amount of Google traffic.
- parkerrex 3y ago
  Good writeup.
- jstummbillig 3y ago
  Have you taken a closer look at AutoGen? I am interested to know how you think it compares to LangChain.
  - minimaxir 3y ago
    AutoGen (https://github.com/microsoft/autogen https://github.com/microsoft/autogen) is orthogonal: it's designed for agents to converse with each other. The original comparison to LangChain from Microsoft was Guidance (https://github.com/guidance-ai/guidance https://github.com/guidance-ai/guidance) which appears to have shifted development a bit. I haven't had much experience with it but from the examples it still seems like needless overhead.
- billmalarky 3y ago
  Hi Max, I'm unaffiliated w/ langchain, but happen to be friends w/ Harrison. He's a very genuine person who authentically desires continuous improvement of LC's tech. Would you be open to hopping on a call some time to discuss how you might make such tech better? I have read your grievances and they're fair enough so what I'd love to hear are your solutions -- that is your honest thoughts on what you think a best-practices AI Framework would look like at a high level (what framework features to emphasize/invest in, what to downplay as nice-to-have-not-need-to-have, etc). Naturally I'd also be curious to hear about how you might evolve LC to achieve your vision, that said even just hearing your architectural/design thoughts would be great. As you mention this is a rapidly developing space where best practices haven't fully converged, so would love to tap your knowledge accordingly. lmk if it's ok to reach out and I'll email you.
  - minimaxir 3y ago
    I talked with Harrison about my concerns before that article was published. I have nothing to add from what the article says. As the article mentions, there's no practical way to fix LangChain at this point without alienating its existing users who've adapted to its many problems.
    - billmalarky 3y ago
      Fair, but I'd still like to learn from ya ;-) If I shoot you an email and you aren't interested, please just archive it. But if you're in the teaching mood I'd love to be your student for 30 min :D
  - davidy123 3y ago
    In my experience, it leads to slow, expensive solutions. It might be really helpful if it provided special purpose small, fast handler models that could be run locally so openai would only be used when really called for.
hobofan 3y ago
> and a pile of utils to go with that library I think in terms of tech debt, that's a big part of it. I don't think I've ever seen a python package that was supposed to be used as a library with that many dependencies (that you also can't just pick a reasonable subset from via extras). I'd rather use a tiny core library with good interfaces + a big ecosystem around it than the kitchen sink approach that langchain takes.

minimaxir 3y ago

I'm glad you asked because I wrote an entire blog post on it a few months ago! https://minimaxir.com/2023/07/langchain-problem/ https://minimaxir.com/2023/07/langchain-problem/ That post also gets a very surprising amount of Google traffic.

parkerrex 3y ago
Good writeup.
jstummbillig 3y ago
Have you taken a closer look at AutoGen? I am interested to know how you think it compares to LangChain.
- minimaxir 3y ago
  AutoGen (https://github.com/microsoft/autogen https://github.com/microsoft/autogen) is orthogonal: it's designed for agents to converse with each other. The original comparison to LangChain from Microsoft was Guidance (https://github.com/guidance-ai/guidance https://github.com/guidance-ai/guidance) which appears to have shifted development a bit. I haven't had much experience with it but from the examples it still seems like needless overhead.
billmalarky 3y ago
Hi Max, I'm unaffiliated w/ langchain, but happen to be friends w/ Harrison. He's a very genuine person who authentically desires continuous improvement of LC's tech. Would you be open to hopping on a call some time to discuss how you might make such tech better? I have read your grievances and they're fair enough so what I'd love to hear are your solutions -- that is your honest thoughts on what you think a best-practices AI Framework would look like at a high level (what framework features to emphasize/invest in, what to downplay as nice-to-have-not-need-to-have, etc). Naturally I'd also be curious to hear about how you might evolve LC to achieve your vision, that said even just hearing your architectural/design thoughts would be great. As you mention this is a rapidly developing space where best practices haven't fully converged, so would love to tap your knowledge accordingly. lmk if it's ok to reach out and I'll email you.
- minimaxir 3y ago
  I talked with Harrison about my concerns before that article was published. I have nothing to add from what the article says. As the article mentions, there's no practical way to fix LangChain at this point without alienating its existing users who've adapted to its many problems.
  - billmalarky 3y ago
    Fair, but I'd still like to learn from ya ;-) If I shoot you an email and you aren't interested, please just archive it. But if you're in the teaching mood I'd love to be your student for 30 min :D
- davidy123 3y ago
  In my experience, it leads to slow, expensive solutions. It might be really helpful if it provided special purpose small, fast handler models that could be run locally so openai would only be used when really called for.

hobofan 3y ago

> and a pile of utils to go with that library I think in terms of tech debt, that's a big part of it. I don't think I've ever seen a python package that was supposed to be used as a library with that many dependencies (that you also can't just pick a reasonable subset from via extras). I'd rather use a tiny core library with good interfaces + a big ecosystem around it than the kitchen sink approach that langchain takes.