6 ms·

The card industry has zero incentive to create a card like this. Card issuers collect 1.25-3.5% of every payment made with a card. A global sales tax paid to

The card industry has zero incentive to create a card like this. Card issuers collect 1.25-3.5% of every payment made with a card. A global sales tax paid to a small collection of companies. This is fantastically profitable. I suspect if a card was created that would mean less revenue for the card issuers it would be embraced then extinguished.

crazygringo 3y ago
Who said anything about a card industry? Digital cash needs to be implemented by the government with zero transaction fees. This needs to be something run by the government, in the same way the government runs printing physical cash. This has nothing whosoever to do with MC/Visa/etc.
- coding_unit_1 3y ago
  This is already in progress, at least in the UK https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/the-digital-pound https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/the-digital-pound
  - aleph_minus_one 3y ago
    > This is already in progress, at least in the UK https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/the-digital-pound https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/the-digital-pound Does this enable completely anonymous payments, or is this another step towards more surveillance?
    - CommanderData 3y ago
      > anonymous payments Surveillance most definitely will be a feature. We are talking about the UK government here.
- tastyfreeze 3y ago
  Who do you think the government would contract to provide card services?
  - crazygringo 3y ago
    I couldn't care less as long as the government is paying for it and it's going to the lowest bidder according to its specifications. Might be MC, might be a bank, might be a startup backed by investors. It doesn't really matter at all. But the point is that it doesn't matter if existing card providers like it or not.
- elzbardico 3y ago
  And if the government created a network for that, and asked for 0.1% fee instead of 1.5%, 3.0%, people would act as if this was the beginning of Stalinism.
  - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3y ago
    I get the feeling the commenter you responded to would more or less agree. They specifically mentioned zero transaction fees.
    - elzbardico 3y ago
      zero fees is unrealistic, any such system has costs.
      - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3y ago
        The government generally funds its projects via taxes; zero fees is perfectly realistic.
        elzbardico 3y ago
        So, in the end you pay the same, but indirectly. And then this needs to dispute for funding with a bazillion of other government programs in the politically charged environment of budgetary allocations. Wouldn't it be better to have this program directly funded by its users? wouldn't it be more transparent? Mind you, I am not sure I am right and you're wrong. I am just pointing some concerns I have. And on the other side, your proposal makes sense also in the point that the government always financed the cost of the whole coins and banknotes stuff from the general budget. But who are we fooling here? The lobbying power from the payments industry is mind-boggling, maybe bigger than the one from the Defense Industry. They would never allow a government payments program that eliminated their role as middleman.
        crazygringo 3y ago
        I'm not sure what your objection is; this is a solved problem. You don't get charged $0.05 per paper bill by the government every time you go to the ATM. Similarly, you don't get charged by the fire department if it puts out a blaze in your home. So: > Wouldn't it be better to have this program directly funded by its users? wouldn't it be more transparent? Absolutely not. This goes against the entire ethos of government, which is that we collectively pay taxes, progressively, for the services that benefit society as a whole. And if supplying and managing cash isn't a core government service, then I don't know what is. Even the most extreme libertarians and anarchists are going to agree on that one.
cowbolt 3y ago
Norway and Denmark have national card schemes (BankAxept and Dankort) which are used for virtually all PoS transactions. They cost a fraction of the transaction costs that Visa and Mastercard charge. These arose by banks agreeing to a standardized solution. Was there ever any attempt to do something similar in the US?
- AaronM 3y ago
  Doubtful; the card processors would probably lobby hard against it, and given our current state of politics would never pass

crazygringo 3y ago

Who said anything about a card industry? Digital cash needs to be implemented by the government with zero transaction fees. This needs to be something run by the government, in the same way the government runs printing physical cash. This has nothing whosoever to do with MC/Visa/etc.

coding_unit_1 3y ago
This is already in progress, at least in the UK https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/the-digital-pound https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/the-digital-pound
- aleph_minus_one 3y ago
  > This is already in progress, at least in the UK https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/the-digital-pound https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/the-digital-pound Does this enable completely anonymous payments, or is this another step towards more surveillance?
  - CommanderData 3y ago
    > anonymous payments Surveillance most definitely will be a feature. We are talking about the UK government here.
tastyfreeze 3y ago
Who do you think the government would contract to provide card services?
- crazygringo 3y ago
  I couldn't care less as long as the government is paying for it and it's going to the lowest bidder according to its specifications. Might be MC, might be a bank, might be a startup backed by investors. It doesn't really matter at all. But the point is that it doesn't matter if existing card providers like it or not.
elzbardico 3y ago
And if the government created a network for that, and asked for 0.1% fee instead of 1.5%, 3.0%, people would act as if this was the beginning of Stalinism.
- lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3y ago
  I get the feeling the commenter you responded to would more or less agree. They specifically mentioned zero transaction fees.
  - elzbardico 3y ago
    zero fees is unrealistic, any such system has costs.
    - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3y ago
      The government generally funds its projects via taxes; zero fees is perfectly realistic.
      - elzbardico 3y ago
        So, in the end you pay the same, but indirectly. And then this needs to dispute for funding with a bazillion of other government programs in the politically charged environment of budgetary allocations. Wouldn't it be better to have this program directly funded by its users? wouldn't it be more transparent? Mind you, I am not sure I am right and you're wrong. I am just pointing some concerns I have. And on the other side, your proposal makes sense also in the point that the government always financed the cost of the whole coins and banknotes stuff from the general budget. But who are we fooling here? The lobbying power from the payments industry is mind-boggling, maybe bigger than the one from the Defense Industry. They would never allow a government payments program that eliminated their role as middleman.
        crazygringo 3y ago
        I'm not sure what your objection is; this is a solved problem. You don't get charged $0.05 per paper bill by the government every time you go to the ATM. Similarly, you don't get charged by the fire department if it puts out a blaze in your home. So: > Wouldn't it be better to have this program directly funded by its users? wouldn't it be more transparent? Absolutely not. This goes against the entire ethos of government, which is that we collectively pay taxes, progressively, for the services that benefit society as a whole. And if supplying and managing cash isn't a core government service, then I don't know what is. Even the most extreme libertarians and anarchists are going to agree on that one.

cowbolt 3y ago

Norway and Denmark have national card schemes (BankAxept and Dankort) which are used for virtually all PoS transactions. They cost a fraction of the transaction costs that Visa and Mastercard charge. These arose by banks agreeing to a standardized solution. Was there ever any attempt to do something similar in the US?

AaronM 3y ago
Doubtful; the card processors would probably lobby hard against it, and given our current state of politics would never pass