4 ms·

You seem like you're trying really hard to be the kind of developer he's criticizing. If you want oversight, if I don't have the privilege of doing what I want

You seem like you're trying really hard to be the kind of developer he's criticizing. If you want oversight, if I don't have the privilege of doing what I want and screwing around, I'm just gonna leave. It kinda reminds me of the "passport bros". You want to MAKE me do housekeeping, and there's NO way to get someone else to do it? I'm just gonna leave, and have fun suckers. You're really smug about "certified™ big boys", but you're just the counterpoint to them. The "certified™ real deal developers", chime in to talk about how they'd never accept oversight, but yet there's very little substance here. I hope you have some reason. You feel that this is a waste of time and too much effort gets spent on CYA and BS, that the "real process", and things that really keep the system safe and secure get ignored (like having super smart certified™ real deal developers), and the checks and balances (like in the process) do nothing to help... maybe this isn't your pitch, but I imagine there's something; yet you haven't shared these ideas. In any case, I think you're wrong. We don't have enough regulations, especially in safety and security critical applications. We need discipline and standardized methods in software, as well as regulations in important areas. Even if you were making real points, we'd have to doubt your motives, but at least you're not sneaky enough to hide them.

thfuran 3y ago
>We don't have enough regulations, especially in safety and security critical applications. We need discipline and standardized methods in software, as well as regulations in important areas Then why do you keep mocking the idea of a professional certification?
- P_I_Staker 3y ago
  I don't, you misunderstood the comment.
apersona 3y ago
I am baffled by the original poster's claims. The original poster claims that they're tired of the millionth LISP interpreter and want software engineers to focus on "certified real TM problems", and concludes with people should play at home and work at work. 1. Except, the millionth LISP interpreter is almost definitely a hobby project, so their claim that people are screwing around at work is bogus. 2. What drives people to work on problems (in industry) isn't "what the nerds find cool", it's money. That's a capitalism problem, not a "this industry isn't controlled enough by me" problem. The most lucrative jobs are in enterprise SaaS and ads companies, do you think engineers flock there because that sounds fun? 3. The software industry isn't uniform. Medical devices ARE regulated under the medical industry, commercial airplanes ARE regulated under the aviation industry. Has there been recent disasters in those industries due to software? Yes, and regulation gets updated. Regulation gets written with blood. You might argue that software feels like they're the most prominent, but I argue it's because: 1. Software is relatively new 2. We are software engineers, so we take notice of software more. Mechanical and civil engineers are not immune to human-injuring mistakes. Think of the last car recall due to mechanical failure (heck, there's one this year due to brake manufacturing issues: https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a44475030/honda-acura-brake-recall/ https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a44475030/honda-acura-brak...). Or the O-ring failure in the space shuttle Challenger that caused it to explode mid-launch.
- P_I_Staker 3y ago
  Yes, this is a huge flaw in his reasoning. > The most lucrative jobs are in enterprise SaaS and ads companies, do you think engineers flock there because that sounds fun? It's not even specific to these industries! HN has a very myopic view of the world. This is true for a number of engineering disciplines. How many people are REALLY passionate about making trash (basically a job I held as an EE)? They pick up these manufacturing jobs, because they're reliable money makers. What was I doing? Taking a machine and creating a copy right next to it (with modifications). Now I'm working in software and largely doing similar things. Integrations, design, architecture... basically accounting work with templates for code. I do a fair amount of embedded system design, but the software design pretty much decided. > 3. The software industry isn't uniform. Medical devices ARE regulated under the medical industry, commercial airplanes ARE regulated under the aviation industry. There are software safety standards, but they can be treated as suggestions. What happens to me if I simply decide not to follow regulations? There's very little. It's comparable to legal, accounting, and other engineering work that has real consequences attached to it for doing it wrong. Loss of profession or jail time. In Europe, more stuff requires a stamp. I work in an industry where we have these conversations. The "real developers" and the "big boy serious developers". I'm just shocked he can have such short-sighted interpretation. The serious big boy developers have their problems too. People just have to choose either extreme side of a spectrum.

thfuran 3y ago

>We don't have enough regulations, especially in safety and security critical applications. We need discipline and standardized methods in software, as well as regulations in important areas Then why do you keep mocking the idea of a professional certification?

P_I_Staker 3y ago
I don't, you misunderstood the comment.

apersona 3y ago

I am baffled by the original poster's claims. The original poster claims that they're tired of the millionth LISP interpreter and want software engineers to focus on "certified real TM problems", and concludes with people should play at home and work at work. 1. Except, the millionth LISP interpreter is almost definitely a hobby project, so their claim that people are screwing around at work is bogus. 2. What drives people to work on problems (in industry) isn't "what the nerds find cool", it's money. That's a capitalism problem, not a "this industry isn't controlled enough by me" problem. The most lucrative jobs are in enterprise SaaS and ads companies, do you think engineers flock there because that sounds fun? 3. The software industry isn't uniform. Medical devices ARE regulated under the medical industry, commercial airplanes ARE regulated under the aviation industry. Has there been recent disasters in those industries due to software? Yes, and regulation gets updated. Regulation gets written with blood. You might argue that software feels like they're the most prominent, but I argue it's because: 1. Software is relatively new 2. We are software engineers, so we take notice of software more. Mechanical and civil engineers are not immune to human-injuring mistakes. Think of the last car recall due to mechanical failure (heck, there's one this year due to brake manufacturing issues: https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a44475030/honda-acura-brake-recall/ https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a44475030/honda-acura-brak...). Or the O-ring failure in the space shuttle Challenger that caused it to explode mid-launch.

P_I_Staker 3y ago
Yes, this is a huge flaw in his reasoning. > The most lucrative jobs are in enterprise SaaS and ads companies, do you think engineers flock there because that sounds fun? It's not even specific to these industries! HN has a very myopic view of the world. This is true for a number of engineering disciplines. How many people are REALLY passionate about making trash (basically a job I held as an EE)? They pick up these manufacturing jobs, because they're reliable money makers. What was I doing? Taking a machine and creating a copy right next to it (with modifications). Now I'm working in software and largely doing similar things. Integrations, design, architecture... basically accounting work with templates for code. I do a fair amount of embedded system design, but the software design pretty much decided. > 3. The software industry isn't uniform. Medical devices ARE regulated under the medical industry, commercial airplanes ARE regulated under the aviation industry. There are software safety standards, but they can be treated as suggestions. What happens to me if I simply decide not to follow regulations? There's very little. It's comparable to legal, accounting, and other engineering work that has real consequences attached to it for doing it wrong. Loss of profession or jail time. In Europe, more stuff requires a stamp. I work in an industry where we have these conversations. The "real developers" and the "big boy serious developers". I'm just shocked he can have such short-sighted interpretation. The serious big boy developers have their problems too. People just have to choose either extreme side of a spectrum.