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America needs tuition-free state universities and trade schools. Full-stop. We're encountering endless problems, sending our entire economy (and living standar

by kevmo 3y ago

America needs tuition-free state universities and trade schools. Full-stop. We're encountering endless problems, sending our entire economy (and living standards) out of whack, because we don't.

xyzelement 3y ago
Who pays for tuition free universities and trade schools?
- jLaForest 3y ago
  The same people that pay for tuition free primary education....
  - bequanna 3y ago
    Local taxpayers/property owners? That model doesn’t really work to fund higher education. The public won’t accept doubling or tripling their property tax.
    - WkndTriathlete 3y ago
      > That model doesn’t really work to fund higher education. The public won’t accept doubling or tripling their property tax. [citation needed] And I can give you a citation against. In my local municipality the tax base is roughly $1.5 billion. The annual expenditures for the local vo-tech school for that municipality is $30 million. If all of the state and tuition funding for the vo-tech school suddenly vanished the property owners would see a rise of ... wait for it ... a grand total of 2%. Certainly a far cry from the doubling or tripling you suggested. Amortizing the tuition across all public post-secondary institutions in the state via income and property tax bases of the entire state would likely be somewhere in the neighborhood of 1-2% total every year. Based on that analysis it seems monumentally stupid to NOT publicly fund post-secondary education. Ditch the NCAA sports programs and it probably gets cheaper. The whole sales pitch for sports is that scholarships provide a pathway for some students to go to college that otherwise could not afford it. Get rid of tuition and suddenly that reason goes away, too.
      - bequanna 3y ago
        Colleges/Universities absolutely do not need more money...they need more accountability. I'm not arguing with your numbers, I guess my point is that I don't think taxpayers will accept a huge "freebie" for one group which results in their taxes going up. The optics are terrible.
    - BeetleB 3y ago
      In reality (and historically), it's the state taxes and not property taxes. Still, if I had 2 kids, doubling my property tax would be cheaper for me than my paying for their tuition at current rates.
  - nordsieck 3y ago
    > The same people that pay for tuition free primary education.... Are you suggesting that people should be locked to the school in their district? Because that's the way primary education works.
    - antoniuschan99 3y ago
      Public community colleges primarily attract and accept students from the local community and are usually supported by local tax revenue - from Wikipedia.
    - sophacles 3y ago
      They aren't locked in. That's the one provided for free. It doesn't seem to stop private schools and homeschooling at all.
    - neaden 3y ago
      Public universities are generally run by the state, not a local government so sure, free in state tuition sounds reasonable.
- hotnfresh 3y ago
  This question is important and needs to be asked because nobody's already solved this problem. We'd be moving into uncharted territory.
- stronglikedan 3y ago
  If they were free, more people would take advantage of them, potentially earning more, bumping them into higher tax brackets, where their taxes would be used to fund tuition free education, and the cycle would continue.
  - bdzr 3y ago
    The money moves in a circle, thus creating the self-sustaining economy we’ve been looking for.
- stonemetal12 3y ago
  Who pays for them in Germany? In Germany, universities are free for everyone even foreigners. Since GP says State Universities I would assume the State they were in would, through whatever tax policy they like.
  - rayiner 3y ago
    In Germany, taxes are 39.5% of GDP. In the US, they are 26.6% of GDP. There’s no realistic proposal that has ever been advanced, not even from the Bernie/AOC/Warren types, on how to raise the extra $2.8 trillion annually that would be required. Elizabeth Warren’s proposed wealth tax wouldn’t even raise that much money over a decade, much less annually.
    - ceejayoz 3y ago
      "extra $2.8 trillion" is incredibly dishonest. Nothing in any universal/single-payer healthcare proposal magically adds $2.8 trillion in actual medical expenses to the system. It's fundamentally an accounting change, akin to a married couple with a joint banking account deciding who'll pay the restaurant bill this time.
      - rayiner 3y ago
        To be like Germany, you would have to take $2.8 trillion from the private sector and put it into the public sector by taxing and spending an extra $2.8 trillion. That’s not an accounting change—the government doesn’t have a joint bank account with the private sector.
        ceejayoz 3y ago
        > To be like Germany, you would have to take $2.8 trillion from the private sector and put it into the public sector by taxing and spending an extra $2.8 trillion. And those taxes would replace the insurance premiums employers and individuals are currently paying out the ass for. It's a difference in who writes the checks, not how much actually goes out of individuals' pockets. Claiming "$2.8B in new taxes" is like claiming "I Venmo you $5, you Venmo me $10" costs me five bucks. > That’s not an accounting change—the government doesn’t have a joint bank account with the private sector. That "joint account" is the GDP you're on about.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- MisterBastahrd 3y ago
  We literally had tuition free universities and trade schools for decades until desegregation. I'll let you figure out what happened after that.
bequanna 3y ago
This sounds like less accountability when fixing the problem requires more. America needs to stop letting their University systems bloat everything unrelated to actual education and research.
- ethbr1 3y ago
  Agreed. American universities need a two-pronged fix. - Implement ACA-style budget efficiency minimums This much of tuition must be spent on direct-teaching expenses. Only this much may be spent on everything else. Otherwise the university in ineligible for any federal educational assistance grant/loan. - Increase funding via increased state contributions to public universities (returning to historical averages), to lower tuition costs
readthenotes1 3y ago
Full-stop? Hardly. Who would gatekeep so that universities and trade schools aren't just continuing the babysitting in high school?

by kevmo 3y ago

America needs tuition-free state universities and trade schools. Full-stop. We're encountering endless problems, sending our entire economy (and living standards) out of whack, because we don't.

xyzelement 3y ago

Who pays for tuition free universities and trade schools?

jLaForest 3y ago
The same people that pay for tuition free primary education....
- bequanna 3y ago
  Local taxpayers/property owners? That model doesn’t really work to fund higher education. The public won’t accept doubling or tripling their property tax.
  - WkndTriathlete 3y ago
    > That model doesn’t really work to fund higher education. The public won’t accept doubling or tripling their property tax. [citation needed] And I can give you a citation against. In my local municipality the tax base is roughly $1.5 billion. The annual expenditures for the local vo-tech school for that municipality is $30 million. If all of the state and tuition funding for the vo-tech school suddenly vanished the property owners would see a rise of ... wait for it ... a grand total of 2%. Certainly a far cry from the doubling or tripling you suggested. Amortizing the tuition across all public post-secondary institutions in the state via income and property tax bases of the entire state would likely be somewhere in the neighborhood of 1-2% total every year. Based on that analysis it seems monumentally stupid to NOT publicly fund post-secondary education. Ditch the NCAA sports programs and it probably gets cheaper. The whole sales pitch for sports is that scholarships provide a pathway for some students to go to college that otherwise could not afford it. Get rid of tuition and suddenly that reason goes away, too.
    - bequanna 3y ago
      Colleges/Universities absolutely do not need more money...they need more accountability. I'm not arguing with your numbers, I guess my point is that I don't think taxpayers will accept a huge "freebie" for one group which results in their taxes going up. The optics are terrible.
  - BeetleB 3y ago
    In reality (and historically), it's the state taxes and not property taxes. Still, if I had 2 kids, doubling my property tax would be cheaper for me than my paying for their tuition at current rates.
- nordsieck 3y ago
  > The same people that pay for tuition free primary education.... Are you suggesting that people should be locked to the school in their district? Because that's the way primary education works.
  - antoniuschan99 3y ago
    Public community colleges primarily attract and accept students from the local community and are usually supported by local tax revenue - from Wikipedia.
  - sophacles 3y ago
    They aren't locked in. That's the one provided for free. It doesn't seem to stop private schools and homeschooling at all.
  - neaden 3y ago
    Public universities are generally run by the state, not a local government so sure, free in state tuition sounds reasonable.
hotnfresh 3y ago
This question is important and needs to be asked because nobody's already solved this problem. We'd be moving into uncharted territory.
stronglikedan 3y ago
If they were free, more people would take advantage of them, potentially earning more, bumping them into higher tax brackets, where their taxes would be used to fund tuition free education, and the cycle would continue.
- bdzr 3y ago
  The money moves in a circle, thus creating the self-sustaining economy we’ve been looking for.
stonemetal12 3y ago
Who pays for them in Germany? In Germany, universities are free for everyone even foreigners. Since GP says State Universities I would assume the State they were in would, through whatever tax policy they like.
- rayiner 3y ago
  In Germany, taxes are 39.5% of GDP. In the US, they are 26.6% of GDP. There’s no realistic proposal that has ever been advanced, not even from the Bernie/AOC/Warren types, on how to raise the extra $2.8 trillion annually that would be required. Elizabeth Warren’s proposed wealth tax wouldn’t even raise that much money over a decade, much less annually.
  - ceejayoz 3y ago
    "extra $2.8 trillion" is incredibly dishonest. Nothing in any universal/single-payer healthcare proposal magically adds $2.8 trillion in actual medical expenses to the system. It's fundamentally an accounting change, akin to a married couple with a joint banking account deciding who'll pay the restaurant bill this time.
    - rayiner 3y ago
      To be like Germany, you would have to take $2.8 trillion from the private sector and put it into the public sector by taxing and spending an extra $2.8 trillion. That’s not an accounting change—the government doesn’t have a joint bank account with the private sector.
      - ceejayoz 3y ago
        > To be like Germany, you would have to take $2.8 trillion from the private sector and put it into the public sector by taxing and spending an extra $2.8 trillion. And those taxes would replace the insurance premiums employers and individuals are currently paying out the ass for. It's a difference in who writes the checks, not how much actually goes out of individuals' pockets. Claiming "$2.8B in new taxes" is like claiming "I Venmo you $5, you Venmo me $10" costs me five bucks. > That’s not an accounting change—the government doesn’t have a joint bank account with the private sector. That "joint account" is the GDP you're on about.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
MisterBastahrd 3y ago
We literally had tuition free universities and trade schools for decades until desegregation. I'll let you figure out what happened after that.

bequanna 3y ago

This sounds like less accountability when fixing the problem requires more. America needs to stop letting their University systems bloat everything unrelated to actual education and research.

ethbr1 3y ago
Agreed. American universities need a two-pronged fix. - Implement ACA-style budget efficiency minimums This much of tuition must be spent on direct-teaching expenses. Only this much may be spent on everything else. Otherwise the university in ineligible for any federal educational assistance grant/loan. - Increase funding via increased state contributions to public universities (returning to historical averages), to lower tuition costs

readthenotes1 3y ago

Full-stop? Hardly. Who would gatekeep so that universities and trade schools aren't just continuing the babysitting in high school?