4 ms·

I'd say the important question is, 'what is the rate of self-declared trans women raping cis women going to be once every man before a court figures out that he

I'd say the important question is, 'what is the rate of self-declared trans women raping cis women going to be once every man before a court figures out that he can get put into women's prison with a single unfalsifiable lie?'. Bad stuff happens in prison, we're all agreed, the issue I see is that a much worse outcome is entirely predictable but many people are afraid they're committing a hate crime unless they blind themselves to that eventuality. And the really important question is, "What else does this luxury belief require blindness to?"

SketchySeaBeast 3y ago
If the volume becomes sufficient why not put trans women with trans women? This is only a problem while the numbers are small so your scenario where this ends in a deluge of scheming rapists would backfire. > And the really important question is, "What else does this luxury belief require blindness to?" Good question - this whole conversation is based upon the idea that trans women aren't valid and if they are sexually assaulted in prison at a hugely higher rate (13x)[1] that's acceptable because we need to stop a hypothetical legion of rapists. [1] https://cpb-us-e2.wpmucdn.com/sites.uci.edu/dist/0/1149/files/2013/06/BulletinVol2Issue2.pdf https://cpb-us-e2.wpmucdn.com/sites.uci.edu/dist/0/1149/file...
- pelch 3y ago
  > this whole conversation is based upon the idea that trans women aren't valid Exactly. They aren't. A 'trans woman' is a type of man and needs to be treated as such when his demands and desires come into conflict with women's needs.
  - SketchySeaBeast 3y ago
    Do you have an account created strictly to deny the existence of trans women? Interesting.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
- suoduandao3 3y ago
  >why not put trans women with trans women? I don't know, why didn't the judge do that in this case? Why not do that with trans athletes? Seems like an obvious solution, yet it wasn't taken. That's the kind of willful blindness (or weakness to social pressure) I'm pointing to. >this whole conversation is based upon the idea that trans women aren't valid It really isn't. Some people really have gender dysphoria (I was one so I'm not just talking out of my ass here) and some people really have strong incentives to claim they have gender dysphoria when they don't. Both can be true. What led to this story is that we can't bring ourselves to investigate whether one particular person could be lying. The problem I'm pointing to isn't that some people have gender dysphoria (some do) or that it's a difficult condition to accommodate (it's really not) or even that our medical system is shit at treating it (it is, but that's a separate problem). The problem is that elements of our culture prioritize helping victims over preventing victimization. Because of their awful health outcomes, trans people today are held as a special class of victim and their desires - not their health outcomes be it noted - are held paramount. Well meaning people would rather prevent trans prisoners today from being raped than ciswomen prisoners tomorrow, despite the obvious asymmetry of suffering in those scenarios. Trans people matter more because they're suffering more, never mind how much suffering would be caused by 'simply affirming their right to exist'. That's what mainstream curricula are teaching and that's what my moral sense objects to.
  - SketchySeaBeast 3y ago
    > Well meaning people would rather prevent trans prisoners today from being raped than ciswomen prisoners tomorrow, despite the obvious asymmetry of suffering in those scenarios. What asymmetry is that? I provided a statistic for the abuse trans women currently suffer in the system, but no one else has provided anything but anecdotes and appeals to some sort of common sense. It, and correct me if I'm wrong, feels like you're giving a similar sort of special reverence to cis women who suffer sexual assault than trans. To be clear, I think sexual assault is bad all around and I hate the idea of abusers slipping being enabled, but it's somehow acceptable that many many trans women are abused instead of the potential for even one more cis woman to be sexually abused in prison than there already are (let's not kid ourselves here, scads of abuse already happens). I guess the answer to this particular trolley problem for many people is to not even consider pulling the lever because it's 5 trans women but one cis.

SketchySeaBeast 3y ago

If the volume becomes sufficient why not put trans women with trans women? This is only a problem while the numbers are small so your scenario where this ends in a deluge of scheming rapists would backfire. > And the really important question is, "What else does this luxury belief require blindness to?" Good question - this whole conversation is based upon the idea that trans women aren't valid and if they are sexually assaulted in prison at a hugely higher rate (13x)[1] that's acceptable because we need to stop a hypothetical legion of rapists. [1] https://cpb-us-e2.wpmucdn.com/sites.uci.edu/dist/0/1149/files/2013/06/BulletinVol2Issue2.pdf https://cpb-us-e2.wpmucdn.com/sites.uci.edu/dist/0/1149/file...

pelch 3y ago
> this whole conversation is based upon the idea that trans women aren't valid Exactly. They aren't. A 'trans woman' is a type of man and needs to be treated as such when his demands and desires come into conflict with women's needs.
- SketchySeaBeast 3y ago
  Do you have an account created strictly to deny the existence of trans women? Interesting.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
suoduandao3 3y ago
>why not put trans women with trans women? I don't know, why didn't the judge do that in this case? Why not do that with trans athletes? Seems like an obvious solution, yet it wasn't taken. That's the kind of willful blindness (or weakness to social pressure) I'm pointing to. >this whole conversation is based upon the idea that trans women aren't valid It really isn't. Some people really have gender dysphoria (I was one so I'm not just talking out of my ass here) and some people really have strong incentives to claim they have gender dysphoria when they don't. Both can be true. What led to this story is that we can't bring ourselves to investigate whether one particular person could be lying. The problem I'm pointing to isn't that some people have gender dysphoria (some do) or that it's a difficult condition to accommodate (it's really not) or even that our medical system is shit at treating it (it is, but that's a separate problem). The problem is that elements of our culture prioritize helping victims over preventing victimization. Because of their awful health outcomes, trans people today are held as a special class of victim and their desires - not their health outcomes be it noted - are held paramount. Well meaning people would rather prevent trans prisoners today from being raped than ciswomen prisoners tomorrow, despite the obvious asymmetry of suffering in those scenarios. Trans people matter more because they're suffering more, never mind how much suffering would be caused by 'simply affirming their right to exist'. That's what mainstream curricula are teaching and that's what my moral sense objects to.
- SketchySeaBeast 3y ago
  > Well meaning people would rather prevent trans prisoners today from being raped than ciswomen prisoners tomorrow, despite the obvious asymmetry of suffering in those scenarios. What asymmetry is that? I provided a statistic for the abuse trans women currently suffer in the system, but no one else has provided anything but anecdotes and appeals to some sort of common sense. It, and correct me if I'm wrong, feels like you're giving a similar sort of special reverence to cis women who suffer sexual assault than trans. To be clear, I think sexual assault is bad all around and I hate the idea of abusers slipping being enabled, but it's somehow acceptable that many many trans women are abused instead of the potential for even one more cis woman to be sexually abused in prison than there already are (let's not kid ourselves here, scads of abuse already happens). I guess the answer to this particular trolley problem for many people is to not even consider pulling the lever because it's 5 trans women but one cis.