4 ms·

I'm not really in the market to buy a car, but I was thinking the prius prime was a good compromise. Basically it's a plug in hybrid with a large enough batter

I'm not really in the market to buy a car, but I was thinking the prius prime was a good compromise. Basically it's a plug in hybrid with a large enough battery for a lot of day to day city driving (44 miles), but hybrid after that. Seems fairly low risk in terms Toyota having pretty extensive experience with hybrids. In terms of improving the environment it would seem like not driving/using public transportation trumps any ev or hybrid anyway. https://www.toyota.com/priusprime/ https://www.toyota.com/priusprime/

jfim 3y ago
IMHO the plug in hybrids are a great compromise. I'm happy with mine. If one can charge at home and one's daily mileage is within the plug in range, one can easily cut most of their emissions. It has the added benefit of not having to worry about range/changing on road trips. My biggest concern with it is stale gas in the tank from not using the gas engine that much, I don't think I've filled the tank more than three or four times in the last year. As you point out, not driving is better, but for many people it's not possible due to the public transportation systems/bike paths not being particularly great in most of the US.
- vel0city 3y ago
  On modern cars the gas tank is usually sealed and pressurized when working properly. It takes a while for gas to go stale in that kind of environment.
  - jfim 3y ago
    That's good to know, thanks!
  - IgorPartola 3y ago
    This and fuel injection means that you can’t nearly as easily gum up small passages since they run at 30-1000 psi depending on the design.
    - vel0city 3y ago
      Yep, that'll also reduce the negatives of bad gas. Then on top of that you've got lots of detergents blended in these days to try and help prevent/cleanup that stuff, and modern ECUs can detect and dynamically remap when the gas is starting to go bad, etc. Unless you're leaving the gas in your modern car for >~1yr I probably wouldn't worry about it too much.
enragedcacti 3y ago
The biggest issue is they aren't making anywhere near enough of them. Toyota argues that batteries are constrained and that for one EV they can make five PHEVs which will reduce emissions more than that one EV. It makes sense on paper and they have a wildly popular PHEV in the RAV4 Prime but they haven't even remotely scaled to meet demand, so it feels more like we are replacing one EV with one PHEV while the other four buyers go ICE or plain hybrid.
- bryanlarsen 3y ago
  Pricing is the other problem. The Prius Prime is more expensive than a Model 3, even before you factor in the $7500 tax credit and the inevitable Toyota dealer markup. The Prius Prime made a lot of sense when it was $10,000 cheaper than a model 3, but does it make as much sense when it's $10,000 more expensive than a base Model 3?
  - hellisothers 3y ago
    If you want a PHEV it does, I don’t see myself in a full electric soon: single car family that goes on long adventures.
    - bryanlarsen 3y ago
      I've done several 3000km trips in my Tesla. It works great with a family -- bathroom stops are longer than charging stops.
  - enragedcacti 3y ago
    I agree that the pricing is too high, although I think the base model ends up only being ~$1000 higher than the base model 3 with a $7500 tax credit. Dealer markups are a huge problem but mostly stem from Toyota not producing enough to meet demand. I think there are a lot of people for whom the math works out on Toyota PHEVs at MSRP, they might be worried about range anxiety, they might travel a lot (56mpg at US prices generally costs less than super charging), they might not need a home charger because they can charge up at work, they want a super-reliable car they can drive into the ground, etc. but a lot of that is thrown out the window if you have to get on 10 waitlists, wait 6+ months, and pay $10k over sticker.
steveBK123 3y ago
The problem is that with tax incentives, you can get a Tesla Model 3 for same/less depending on how you spec out your Prius. The Tesla is also going to be more fun to drive / attractive to most people. Other problem with hybrid is you have all the maintenance & failure modes of ICE plus the maintenance & failure modes of EV in one vehicle. Statistically they have the highest rate of vehicle fires (this makes sense, you have the risks of both ICE & EV under 1 hood).
- bryanlarsen 3y ago
  OTOH the hybrid is a Toyota and the EV is a Tesla. I've seen Prius taxis with >500K on the meter.
- enragedcacti 3y ago
  > Other problem with hybrid is you have all the maintenance & failure modes of ICE plus the maintenance & failure modes of EV in one vehicle. You'd think so but in practice most hybrid designs allow for some fairly radical simplification compared to your average ICE vehicle. eCVT transmissions are stupid simple and reliable compared to traditional automatics and also have the benefit of replacing the starter and alternator. The high voltage system also let's you easily replace failure prone belt driven components like power steering pumps and A/C compressors with electric versions. Hybrids can also hit efficiency and power targets while naturally aspirated, avoiding the need for turbos and all of the associated complexity which is very common in ICE cars. Hybrids generally also have longer maintenance intervals because the engine only runs ~2/3rds of the time relative to ICE for a given distance driven. Rotors and pads will also last much much longer.

jfim 3y ago

IMHO the plug in hybrids are a great compromise. I'm happy with mine. If one can charge at home and one's daily mileage is within the plug in range, one can easily cut most of their emissions. It has the added benefit of not having to worry about range/changing on road trips. My biggest concern with it is stale gas in the tank from not using the gas engine that much, I don't think I've filled the tank more than three or four times in the last year. As you point out, not driving is better, but for many people it's not possible due to the public transportation systems/bike paths not being particularly great in most of the US.

vel0city 3y ago
On modern cars the gas tank is usually sealed and pressurized when working properly. It takes a while for gas to go stale in that kind of environment.
- jfim 3y ago
  That's good to know, thanks!
- IgorPartola 3y ago
  This and fuel injection means that you can’t nearly as easily gum up small passages since they run at 30-1000 psi depending on the design.
  - vel0city 3y ago
    Yep, that'll also reduce the negatives of bad gas. Then on top of that you've got lots of detergents blended in these days to try and help prevent/cleanup that stuff, and modern ECUs can detect and dynamically remap when the gas is starting to go bad, etc. Unless you're leaving the gas in your modern car for >~1yr I probably wouldn't worry about it too much.

enragedcacti 3y ago

The biggest issue is they aren't making anywhere near enough of them. Toyota argues that batteries are constrained and that for one EV they can make five PHEVs which will reduce emissions more than that one EV. It makes sense on paper and they have a wildly popular PHEV in the RAV4 Prime but they haven't even remotely scaled to meet demand, so it feels more like we are replacing one EV with one PHEV while the other four buyers go ICE or plain hybrid.

bryanlarsen 3y ago
Pricing is the other problem. The Prius Prime is more expensive than a Model 3, even before you factor in the $7500 tax credit and the inevitable Toyota dealer markup. The Prius Prime made a lot of sense when it was $10,000 cheaper than a model 3, but does it make as much sense when it's $10,000 more expensive than a base Model 3?
- hellisothers 3y ago
  If you want a PHEV it does, I don’t see myself in a full electric soon: single car family that goes on long adventures.
  - bryanlarsen 3y ago
    I've done several 3000km trips in my Tesla. It works great with a family -- bathroom stops are longer than charging stops.
- enragedcacti 3y ago
  I agree that the pricing is too high, although I think the base model ends up only being ~$1000 higher than the base model 3 with a $7500 tax credit. Dealer markups are a huge problem but mostly stem from Toyota not producing enough to meet demand. I think there are a lot of people for whom the math works out on Toyota PHEVs at MSRP, they might be worried about range anxiety, they might travel a lot (56mpg at US prices generally costs less than super charging), they might not need a home charger because they can charge up at work, they want a super-reliable car they can drive into the ground, etc. but a lot of that is thrown out the window if you have to get on 10 waitlists, wait 6+ months, and pay $10k over sticker.

steveBK123 3y ago

The problem is that with tax incentives, you can get a Tesla Model 3 for same/less depending on how you spec out your Prius. The Tesla is also going to be more fun to drive / attractive to most people. Other problem with hybrid is you have all the maintenance & failure modes of ICE plus the maintenance & failure modes of EV in one vehicle. Statistically they have the highest rate of vehicle fires (this makes sense, you have the risks of both ICE & EV under 1 hood).

bryanlarsen 3y ago
OTOH the hybrid is a Toyota and the EV is a Tesla. I've seen Prius taxis with >500K on the meter.
enragedcacti 3y ago
> Other problem with hybrid is you have all the maintenance & failure modes of ICE plus the maintenance & failure modes of EV in one vehicle. You'd think so but in practice most hybrid designs allow for some fairly radical simplification compared to your average ICE vehicle. eCVT transmissions are stupid simple and reliable compared to traditional automatics and also have the benefit of replacing the starter and alternator. The high voltage system also let's you easily replace failure prone belt driven components like power steering pumps and A/C compressors with electric versions. Hybrids can also hit efficiency and power targets while naturally aspirated, avoiding the need for turbos and all of the associated complexity which is very common in ICE cars. Hybrids generally also have longer maintenance intervals because the engine only runs ~2/3rds of the time relative to ICE for a given distance driven. Rotors and pads will also last much much longer.