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And I suggest taking a look at Israel dropping bombs on a refugee camp (Jabalia refugee camp) they knew was overflowing with women and children. And I also sug

And I suggest taking a look at Israel dropping bombs on a refugee camp (Jabalia refugee camp) they knew was overflowing with women and children. And I also suggest meditating on the fact that Israel's war on Gaza is the first war in modern history where women and children comprise the vast majority of the victims. According to CBC radio, more children have been killed in Gaza in the past 3 weeks than in all conflicts since 2019. ( Link: https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.7012927 https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.7012927 ) Perhaps it's time to start viewing both Hamas and the Government of Israel as Terrorist Organizations, since both of them now wholeheartedly engage in intentionally attacking civilian populations.

boeingUH60 3y ago
The terrorists are the side that attacked first and have a literal terrorist name.
- nat0704 3y ago
  Oh, so in your twisted world, as long as you're atacked first, you're fully justified in murdering innocent women & children, is that it?
  - candiodari 3y ago
    No, but if someone is bombing you and you move civilians literally into the area to be bombed, to accuse the other side of bombing civilians ... Then you're at fault. Not whoever dropped the bomb. In case there's any doubt what I mean: Hamas is moving Palestinian civilians (in addition to killing them outright) at gunpoint into areas Israel has announced they'll bomb. That's as bad as throwing them off buildings, shooting them, and other methods they use, and as it makes it impossible for Israel to avoid civilians, it does remove the blame from Israel.
    - enterprise_cog 3y ago
      Warped logic. The person dropping the bomb is always at fault. They know civilians are there. And please post evidence of your claim they are moving civilians in intentionally. Turns out those buildings being blown up are also people’s houses and they don’t want to leave.
      - dvfjsdhgfv 3y ago
        I tell you some anecdata. I dated an Israeli girl once. She was totally pro-peace, organizing protests against her government policy re. Gaza and so on. At some point she dated an Israeli soldier who told her a few stories, so it's a third-hand account and take it with a grain of salt. But there were several cases when Hamas was firing from a specific building, then the Israeli sent their forces there and discovered the whole roof of that building is filled with Palestinian women and children so their aircraft had to fly back. They had been doing this for years: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_shield#Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_shield#Israeli%E2%80%93P...
        enterprise_cog 3y ago
        If you read the Wikipedia it specifically says that there is no evidence. The human shield claim is so the IOF can bomb civilian areas with no responsibility for their deaths. Also, as for your story, I don’t believe them. More likely that soldier killed civilians knowingly and then made up the story after.
        dvfjsdhgfv 3y ago
        > If you read the Wikipedia it specifically says that there is no evidence. There is a lot of it, but of course you can say it's all fabricated, e.g. these examples: https://web.archive.org/web/20111018011032/http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Hamas+war+against+Israel/Hamas+exploitation+of+civilians+as+human+shields+-+Photographic+evidence.htm https://web.archive.org/web/20111018011032/http://www.mfa.go... However, the gist of "lack of evidence" is found in this quote: > The United Nations Fact-Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict ("UNFFMG") that took place in 2008–2009 accepted the possibility that Hamas launched mortar attacks from the vicinity of a school and from residential homes, sometimes by the threat of force against residents. The report was unable to find specific evidence that civilians whose homes were used for rocket launches were "forced to remain in their houses" but the report repeatedly noted that Gaza residents were "reluctant" to discuss the conduct of Palestinian armed forces due to fear of reprisals. So yes, if you are going to look for Palestinians who will testify in court that the were forced to remain in a given place or enable to escape for some time, you will never find such a person.
  - kazinator 3y ago
    To my understanding, that's roughly how Hiroshima continues to be explained to American children.
    - pauldenton 3y ago
      It's a bit more nuanced in Japan I suspect. Covering the Hibakusha, as well as that firebombing over 2 nights in Tokyo having more casualties than Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined.
invalidname 3y ago
> And I suggest taking a look at Israel dropping bombs on a refugee camp (Jabalia refugee camp) they knew was overflowing with women and children. Israel specifically pointed at the area where they will be bombing to clear civilians. They used cell phone tracking to make sure that their message was getting through and only then conducted bombing. This seriously hindered the impact of the bombing since it lets the terrorists escape. Notice that these "facts" about civilians dying are given by the Hamas who block escape roads for their own people and disallow them from going into their tunnels for safety. The Hamas wants civilian casualties to raise the next generation of terrorists and to reduce the legitimacy of Israel. > And I also suggest meditating on the fact that Israel's war on Gaza is the first war in modern history where women and children comprise the vast majority of the victims. According to the Hamas which has lied repeatedly about everything and specifically prevented people from leaving. > Kind of makes you wonder who the 'terrorists' are. No it doesn't. The difference is stark. The Hamas his holding children hostage. It opened this attack by burning civilians alive and shooting children. It was during a time when Israel was reducing pressure on Gaza so 100% unprovoked and against civilians. They knew retaliation would happen and are keeping hostages so the retaliation will happen. They block their own people from the tunnels so they will die in the crossfire. Israel might make mistakes that harm civilians (a lot fewer than reported) but the hamas left Israel no choice. Imagine your children held in a terrorist tunnel, Israel is REMARKABLY easy on them all things considered.
- nat0704 3y ago
  Yeah, the good ol' "I don't agree with the facts, so they must be damn lies" defense. Look, I used to be as Pro-Israeli as they come. I fully endorse the right of any nation to defend itself when attacked by terrorists ( and yes Hamas is a terrorist group on par with Al-Qaeda). But it's one thing to act against terrorists, and it's another thing entirely to indiscriminately kill children for crying out loud. Children! I supported Israel, but I have a conscience, as do the vast majority of human beings. At this point, there's no difference between Hamas and the Govt of Israel. In the refugee camp that was bombed, children were trying to drag the corpses of other children they had been playing with together in a playground. That's heartbreaking, it's horrifying. And to respond to your 'fake statistics' claim, the UN and Aid Agencies have repeatedly certified that the death numbers released are accurate, with some insisting they're actually undercounts, which means even more innocent people have been killed by the Israeli Government's indiscriminate bombing than has been reported.
philwelch 3y ago
Those casualty numbers all originate from the “Gaza Health Ministry”, which is in reality just Hamas. They are not reliable and shouldn’t be taken at face value. During the 2002 Battle of Jenin, Palestinians claimed hundreds to thousands of civilian casualties, including claims of mass graves. Afterwards, the total number of Palestinian casualties turned out to be 52 to 53, most of whom were militants. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Jenin_(2002) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Jenin_(2002) As for Jabalia, many of the civilian casualties are attributed to “sinkholes” (i.e. the Hamas tunnel network). There were also warnings of “the possibility of secondary explosions due to the presence of munitions in the area” (https://x.com/gaza_report/status/1719363355360518250 https://x.com/gaza_report/status/1719363355360518250), along with reports of “the loss of Jabaliya brigade commander Ibrahim Biari and several other fighters when their underground operations center collapsed after being hit by an Israeli air strike.” Israel issued a warning weeks ago that the safest part of Gaza would the southern half of the strip, south of the Wadi Gaza. Why wouldn’t Hamas place refugees there instead of on top of their underground command centers where they were storing munitions? > Kind of makes you wonder who the 'terrorists' are. On October 7th, Hamas fighters entered Israel to rape and murder over 1,400 people in their homes, in the streets, and at a music festival. Over 200 were taken hostage. Do you believe this was a legitimate act of resistance?
- tamimio 3y ago
  > Those casualty numbers all originate from the “Gaza Health Ministry” The white house did eventually confirm the casualties (1), not to mention in previous wars there were no major discrepancies and were credible and believed by the white house and media too, in fact, UN believes that the numbers are actually higher but still under the rubble > Some U.N. officials, however, say the real number of casualties is likely significantly higher because the health ministry’s tally doesn’t include people still under the rubble. (2) (1) https://twitter.com/OopsGuess/status/1719517883976614095 https://twitter.com/OopsGuess/status/1719517883976614095 (2) https://archive.ph/1ftlW https://archive.ph/1ftlW
  - philwelch 3y ago
    > The white house did eventually confirm the casualties The White House confirmed that civilian casualties are taking place, but civilian casualties take place in every armed conflict. > not to mention in previous wars there were no major discrepancies False; did you read the part of my comment addressing Jenin? Even in this conflict, the blast at the hospital, Hamas claimed 500 deaths when they blamed it on Israel. It turned out that not only did Israel not bomb the hospital (rather, it was hit by a rocket fired by Palestinian Islamic Jihad), but the total number of deaths was, depending on which source you believe, anywhere between 1/10 and 1/2 as many as Hamas had originally claimed.

boeingUH60 3y ago

The terrorists are the side that attacked first and have a literal terrorist name.

nat0704 3y ago
Oh, so in your twisted world, as long as you're atacked first, you're fully justified in murdering innocent women & children, is that it?
- candiodari 3y ago
  No, but if someone is bombing you and you move civilians literally into the area to be bombed, to accuse the other side of bombing civilians ... Then you're at fault. Not whoever dropped the bomb. In case there's any doubt what I mean: Hamas is moving Palestinian civilians (in addition to killing them outright) at gunpoint into areas Israel has announced they'll bomb. That's as bad as throwing them off buildings, shooting them, and other methods they use, and as it makes it impossible for Israel to avoid civilians, it does remove the blame from Israel.
  - enterprise_cog 3y ago
    Warped logic. The person dropping the bomb is always at fault. They know civilians are there. And please post evidence of your claim they are moving civilians in intentionally. Turns out those buildings being blown up are also people’s houses and they don’t want to leave.
    - dvfjsdhgfv 3y ago
      I tell you some anecdata. I dated an Israeli girl once. She was totally pro-peace, organizing protests against her government policy re. Gaza and so on. At some point she dated an Israeli soldier who told her a few stories, so it's a third-hand account and take it with a grain of salt. But there were several cases when Hamas was firing from a specific building, then the Israeli sent their forces there and discovered the whole roof of that building is filled with Palestinian women and children so their aircraft had to fly back. They had been doing this for years: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_shield#Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_shield#Israeli%E2%80%93P...
      - enterprise_cog 3y ago
        If you read the Wikipedia it specifically says that there is no evidence. The human shield claim is so the IOF can bomb civilian areas with no responsibility for their deaths. Also, as for your story, I don’t believe them. More likely that soldier killed civilians knowingly and then made up the story after.
        dvfjsdhgfv 3y ago
        > If you read the Wikipedia it specifically says that there is no evidence. There is a lot of it, but of course you can say it's all fabricated, e.g. these examples: https://web.archive.org/web/20111018011032/http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Hamas+war+against+Israel/Hamas+exploitation+of+civilians+as+human+shields+-+Photographic+evidence.htm https://web.archive.org/web/20111018011032/http://www.mfa.go... However, the gist of "lack of evidence" is found in this quote: > The United Nations Fact-Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict ("UNFFMG") that took place in 2008–2009 accepted the possibility that Hamas launched mortar attacks from the vicinity of a school and from residential homes, sometimes by the threat of force against residents. The report was unable to find specific evidence that civilians whose homes were used for rocket launches were "forced to remain in their houses" but the report repeatedly noted that Gaza residents were "reluctant" to discuss the conduct of Palestinian armed forces due to fear of reprisals. So yes, if you are going to look for Palestinians who will testify in court that the were forced to remain in a given place or enable to escape for some time, you will never find such a person.
- kazinator 3y ago
  To my understanding, that's roughly how Hiroshima continues to be explained to American children.
  - pauldenton 3y ago
    It's a bit more nuanced in Japan I suspect. Covering the Hibakusha, as well as that firebombing over 2 nights in Tokyo having more casualties than Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined.

invalidname 3y ago

> And I suggest taking a look at Israel dropping bombs on a refugee camp (Jabalia refugee camp) they knew was overflowing with women and children. Israel specifically pointed at the area where they will be bombing to clear civilians. They used cell phone tracking to make sure that their message was getting through and only then conducted bombing. This seriously hindered the impact of the bombing since it lets the terrorists escape. Notice that these "facts" about civilians dying are given by the Hamas who block escape roads for their own people and disallow them from going into their tunnels for safety. The Hamas wants civilian casualties to raise the next generation of terrorists and to reduce the legitimacy of Israel. > And I also suggest meditating on the fact that Israel's war on Gaza is the first war in modern history where women and children comprise the vast majority of the victims. According to the Hamas which has lied repeatedly about everything and specifically prevented people from leaving. > Kind of makes you wonder who the 'terrorists' are. No it doesn't. The difference is stark. The Hamas his holding children hostage. It opened this attack by burning civilians alive and shooting children. It was during a time when Israel was reducing pressure on Gaza so 100% unprovoked and against civilians. They knew retaliation would happen and are keeping hostages so the retaliation will happen. They block their own people from the tunnels so they will die in the crossfire. Israel might make mistakes that harm civilians (a lot fewer than reported) but the hamas left Israel no choice. Imagine your children held in a terrorist tunnel, Israel is REMARKABLY easy on them all things considered.

nat0704 3y ago
Yeah, the good ol' "I don't agree with the facts, so they must be damn lies" defense. Look, I used to be as Pro-Israeli as they come. I fully endorse the right of any nation to defend itself when attacked by terrorists ( and yes Hamas is a terrorist group on par with Al-Qaeda). But it's one thing to act against terrorists, and it's another thing entirely to indiscriminately kill children for crying out loud. Children! I supported Israel, but I have a conscience, as do the vast majority of human beings. At this point, there's no difference between Hamas and the Govt of Israel. In the refugee camp that was bombed, children were trying to drag the corpses of other children they had been playing with together in a playground. That's heartbreaking, it's horrifying. And to respond to your 'fake statistics' claim, the UN and Aid Agencies have repeatedly certified that the death numbers released are accurate, with some insisting they're actually undercounts, which means even more innocent people have been killed by the Israeli Government's indiscriminate bombing than has been reported.

philwelch 3y ago

Those casualty numbers all originate from the “Gaza Health Ministry”, which is in reality just Hamas. They are not reliable and shouldn’t be taken at face value. During the 2002 Battle of Jenin, Palestinians claimed hundreds to thousands of civilian casualties, including claims of mass graves. Afterwards, the total number of Palestinian casualties turned out to be 52 to 53, most of whom were militants. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Jenin_(2002) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Jenin_(2002) As for Jabalia, many of the civilian casualties are attributed to “sinkholes” (i.e. the Hamas tunnel network). There were also warnings of “the possibility of secondary explosions due to the presence of munitions in the area” (https://x.com/gaza_report/status/1719363355360518250 https://x.com/gaza_report/status/1719363355360518250), along with reports of “the loss of Jabaliya brigade commander Ibrahim Biari and several other fighters when their underground operations center collapsed after being hit by an Israeli air strike.” Israel issued a warning weeks ago that the safest part of Gaza would the southern half of the strip, south of the Wadi Gaza. Why wouldn’t Hamas place refugees there instead of on top of their underground command centers where they were storing munitions? > Kind of makes you wonder who the 'terrorists' are. On October 7th, Hamas fighters entered Israel to rape and murder over 1,400 people in their homes, in the streets, and at a music festival. Over 200 were taken hostage. Do you believe this was a legitimate act of resistance?

tamimio 3y ago
> Those casualty numbers all originate from the “Gaza Health Ministry” The white house did eventually confirm the casualties (1), not to mention in previous wars there were no major discrepancies and were credible and believed by the white house and media too, in fact, UN believes that the numbers are actually higher but still under the rubble > Some U.N. officials, however, say the real number of casualties is likely significantly higher because the health ministry’s tally doesn’t include people still under the rubble. (2) (1) https://twitter.com/OopsGuess/status/1719517883976614095 https://twitter.com/OopsGuess/status/1719517883976614095 (2) https://archive.ph/1ftlW https://archive.ph/1ftlW
- philwelch 3y ago
  > The white house did eventually confirm the casualties The White House confirmed that civilian casualties are taking place, but civilian casualties take place in every armed conflict. > not to mention in previous wars there were no major discrepancies False; did you read the part of my comment addressing Jenin? Even in this conflict, the blast at the hospital, Hamas claimed 500 deaths when they blamed it on Israel. It turned out that not only did Israel not bomb the hospital (rather, it was hit by a rocket fired by Palestinian Islamic Jihad), but the total number of deaths was, depending on which source you believe, anywhere between 1/10 and 1/2 as many as Hamas had originally claimed.