9 ms·

Are you referring to the freedom of speech being restricted for Jihadi mass murderers as "terrifying"??? I suggest taking a look at some of the stories on how

Are you referring to the freedom of speech being restricted for Jihadi mass murderers as "terrifying"??? I suggest taking a look at some of the stories on how the Hamas murdered people and is using its own people as human shields to learn about "terrifying". There should be limits at some point.

zaktoo2 3y ago
[flagged]
- invalidname 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - ChatGTP 3y ago
    I completely disagree with you. However I did share your exact viewpoint at some stage. At the start of this conflict I was all about revenge against Hamas. I still am. But Israel has taken it too far. They really are showing very little disregard for the innocent people in Palestine. I'm sorry but they do exist. At some stage, justifying the destruction of thousands of children just to say you're trying to defeat Hamas no longer holds water. This can never be walked back. What has taken place here will never be forgotten I agree Hamas should give hostages back and surrender, but tell me what this has to do with a 5 year old child being blown to pieces again? Why should they have to pay for what some "adults" have done?
    - invalidname 3y ago
      > At the start of this conflict I was all about revenge against Hamas. I still am. But Israel has taken it too far. They really are showing very little disregard for the innocent people in Palestine. I'm sorry but they do exist. I have friends within Gaza. And guess what also hostage friends in Gaza. Don't believe Israel won't bomb the Gazans. But do believe Israel won't bomb the hostages... They don't know where they are so OBVIOUSLY they won't blow up random locations so they won't hurt them... You are falling for Hamas lies. > I agree Hamas should give hostages back and surrender, but tell me what this has to do with a 5 year old child being blown to pieces again? Why should they have to pay for what some "adults" have done? Israel never aimed at 5 year olds and specifically warned about the places where it would attack. The Hamas places civilians in these areas so they can sway minds exactly like in this case... But it's easy to get up on a high horse here... What do you suggest? A ceasefire is like a surrender. They will gather their forces and keep the poor hostages. Every ceasefire in the past was used to get more weapons and fight harder. This has to end for the Gazan people too. They have been under the yoke of the Hamas for too long.
      - ChatGTP 3y ago
        [flagged]
        invalidname 3y ago
        [flagged]
        dang 3y ago
        You guys need to stop arguing like this on HN. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. We want thoughtful, respectful, curious conversation across differences. I know that's virtually impossible with emotions as strong as with this particular set of differences, but in that case it's best to just refrain from posting. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.
        invalidname 3y ago
        This is thoughtful and respectful by comparison. When it comes to the subject matter at hand.
        dang 3y ago
        You guys need to stop arguing like this on HN. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. We want thoughtful, respectful, curious conversation across differences. I know that's virtually impossible with emotions as strong as with this particular set of differences, but in that case it's best to just refrain from posting. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.
        ChatGTP 3y ago
        [flagged]
    - philwelch 3y ago
      For nine months between October 2016 and July 2017, the Iraqi military, with direct support from the United States and NATO allies, fought a bloody battle to liberate the city of Mosul from ISIS. This battle caused thousands to tens of thousands of civilian casualties, many of which were inflicted by Western airstrikes and Iraqi artillery. Concurrently, between November 2016 and October 2017, Kurdish forces in Syria, alongside foreign volunteers and with Western support, fought an offensive in the Raqqa Governate of Syria to remove ISIS and capture their capital city of Raqqa. Thousands more were killed there. All told, the process of eliminating ISIS’ control over vast swaths of Iraq and Syria led to many thousands of civilian casualties. And yet, everyone seems to agree that between that outcome and the possibility of allowing ISIS to persist, this was the preferable choice between two very bad outcomes. It was a goal that, although briefly and inconsistently, was shared by the US and Russia, all sides of the Syrian Civil War, Turkey, and even Iran. Just like ISIS, allowing Hamas to persist is no longer a viable possibility. People call for a cease fire, but the last cease fire was broken by Hamas when they committed the bloodiest attack on Jewish people since the Holocaust—itself an atrocity that was only ended through a war that entailed the deaths of probably millions of German civilians at the hands of the Allies. Innocent people in Gaza do exist. They exist as hostages of Hamas. I don’t mean just the hundreds of hostages they captured on October 7th; I mean that Hamas is holding the entire population of the Gaza Strip hostage. They build underground tunnels to protect their fighters and their weapons, but nothing to protect civilians. Instead they place refugees on top of their underground command centers and weapons caches. Even when they fire their terror rockets into Israel, many of them never make it past the borders of Gaza. And when this happens, they lie, they accuse Israel of committing attacks on the innocent people of Gaza that actually happened at the hands of Hamas and their allies, and they completely fabricate numbers. Any of the numbers you see reported and attributed to a “health ministry” in Gaza are Hamas fabrications; Western media is strangely gullible about this sort of thing for reasons I can’t explain. And so claims about “the destruction of thousands of children” are little more than Hamas propaganda. Israel has held back their offensives for weeks, provided directed warnings to Gaza residents (at the expense of tipping off Hamas when and where they would strike), and given several days’ warning for Gaza residents to evacuate south of the Wadi Gaza. In response, Hamas blocked the roads and bombed Palestinian refugees traveling towards this safe zone. The only path to a peaceful future for the people of Gaza and Israel is the elimination of Hamas, just as ISIS had to be eliminated. It is a horrible situation, but it is Hamas who has made it this way and that is why Hamas needs to be destroyed. Just because they have better PR than ISIS did doesn’t change the situation on the ground.
  - zaktoo2 3y ago
    This completely misses all the facts. For starters, Israel has tens of thousands of hostages in their jails, some as young as 3, without charge, without trial. Hamas is fighting a murderous occupying force, which not only does not conform to the obligations of an occupying power, but in fact intentionally breaks the laws of occupation in their lust for genocide. Never mind the anti-human restriction of calories into Gaza to keep the population it occupies on the edge of starvation permanently. Never mind the wanton murder of civilians for sport by the IDF and the illegal settlers. Then consider all the checkpoints Palestinians have to go through daily just to move from area to area. After that, consider that Israel had frequently bombed civilian infrastructure and boasted about it, including that hospital they claimed war got by a stray Palestinian rocket. Go find facts
    - invalidname 3y ago
      [flagged]
  - dang 3y ago
    > YOU are a useful idiot for a genocidal entity that is murdering its own people. You can't attack other users like this, no matter how wrong they are or you feel they are. We have to ban accounts that do it, so please don't do it again. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - invalidname 3y ago
      The term "useful idiot" isn't an attack. It's a term. I wasn't calling him an "idiot". I was saying he was being used by propaganda: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot
      - dang 3y ago
        It's an obvious attack, and so is telling people that they're being "used by propaganda". We ban accounts that post like that repeatedly, so please don't do it again. You need to make your points by focusing on the topic at hand, not swiping at the person you're arguing with.
ChatGTP 3y ago
I suggest you look even further and realize both sides have committed horrific atrocities. I recently listened to the "Martyrmade" podcast and I couldn't believe it. There was a time when the British and Arabs were being driven out of Palestine using extreme violence too. Realistically, we should all be working for peace.
- invalidname 3y ago
  > I suggest you look even further and realize both sides have committed horrific atrocities. Israel has a lot of blame and any other time I would be with you with the pitchforks against Israel. This isn't one of those days. I suggest you learn the difference between the stuff the Hamas did on October 7th and the worst stuff Israel did in the worst instances... This isn't even remotely on the scale. Regardless, this isn't about atrocities. This is about stopping a murderous lying organization that is manipulating western media and mindshare using lies. Israel and the Palestinians did sign a peace agreement. Guess who stopped it by blowing up MANY busses... One guess...
  - ChatGTP 3y ago
    Israel and the Palestinians did sign a peace agreement. Guess who stopped it by blowing up MANY busses... One guess... I also know that Israel are taking peoples homes and land. it doesn't justify terrorism but it's an act of agression in its own right. Imagine if a group came to the USA and started kicking Americans out? I'd like to see how that goes... The reality is, innocents and children are now being blown up, en masse. It doesn't matter to me "how" it's done.It matter what and to whom the victims are. Just because you're not using human shields, doesn't mean dropping a bomb from a hi-tech hundred million dollar fighter jet makes you special or absolves you from responsibility, or makes it ok. Those human shields are innocent people.
    - invalidname 3y ago
      > I also know that Israel are taking peoples homes and land. No it hasn't. You're talking about 1948 where there was a terrible war. Many Jews lost their homes. Palestinians who left the country couldn't return because of all arab countries were at war with Israel and the borders were closed. The many Jews who ran from Arab countries lost everything too but no one talks about that. I agree there should be a Palestinian state. Hamas is the #1 reason there isn't one. Israel is a distant #2 here... > Imagine if a group came to the USA and started kicking Americans out? I'd like to see how that goes... Funny you should mention that because that group is the Americans... > Just because you're not using human shields, doesn't mean dropping a bomb from a hi-tech hundred million dollar fighter jet makes you special or absolves you from responsibility, or makes it ok. It doesn't. That's why Israel tracks every bomb and every firing. There's a special prosecutor from Hauge court right now looking at everything and US involvement also makes sure Israel is taking every precaution. Unlike the Hamas, Israel can be sued for war crimes and is making sure to document every decision so it has a chain back to the intelligence that triggered every bombing. > Those human shields are innocent people. 100%. Historically, that was the reason Israel didn't deal with the Hamas in the past. That was the wrong decision in retrospect. The Hamas has to be destroyed and there's just no other way to do it. It is terrible.
nat0704 3y ago
And I suggest taking a look at Israel dropping bombs on a refugee camp (Jabalia refugee camp) they knew was overflowing with women and children. And I also suggest meditating on the fact that Israel's war on Gaza is the first war in modern history where women and children comprise the vast majority of the victims. According to CBC radio, more children have been killed in Gaza in the past 3 weeks than in all conflicts since 2019. ( Link: https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.7012927 https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.7012927 ) Perhaps it's time to start viewing both Hamas and the Government of Israel as Terrorist Organizations, since both of them now wholeheartedly engage in intentionally attacking civilian populations.
- boeingUH60 3y ago
  The terrorists are the side that attacked first and have a literal terrorist name.
  - nat0704 3y ago
    Oh, so in your twisted world, as long as you're atacked first, you're fully justified in murdering innocent women & children, is that it?
    - candiodari 3y ago
      No, but if someone is bombing you and you move civilians literally into the area to be bombed, to accuse the other side of bombing civilians ... Then you're at fault. Not whoever dropped the bomb. In case there's any doubt what I mean: Hamas is moving Palestinian civilians (in addition to killing them outright) at gunpoint into areas Israel has announced they'll bomb. That's as bad as throwing them off buildings, shooting them, and other methods they use, and as it makes it impossible for Israel to avoid civilians, it does remove the blame from Israel.
      - enterprise_cog 3y ago
        Warped logic. The person dropping the bomb is always at fault. They know civilians are there. And please post evidence of your claim they are moving civilians in intentionally. Turns out those buildings being blown up are also people’s houses and they don’t want to leave.
tamimio 3y ago
> suggest taking a look at some of the stories on how the Hamas murdered You mean the 40 beheaded babies or the one in the oven? As so far all these “stories” turned out to be an utter lie. On the other hand, did you know Tantura (1) Deir Yassin (2) where confirmed cases of killing and raping of minors -per the vets who served that time? and around 1mill Palestinians were forced to leave their houses and homeland back in 1948, and most of them ended up where? in Gaza!, that also has their refugee camp bombed yesterday.. Gaza since 2005 is an open air prison, even years ago they tried to march peacefully to the borders to show the world that there are people still in there dying slowly (3), so drop that victim tone because a “victim” cannot cut water/electricity/internet/food/logistics instantly and proceed to drop 18,000 tons of bombs that’s equivalent to 1.5 times the force of bomb of Hiroshima. Israel is who created that resistance by occupying the land and violating all international laws, most of these resistance fighters are orphans who have their parents killed in previous bombing, and the west bank is under a strict martial law that will put you behind the bars for likes on social media, trying to isolate what happened in Oct/7th as the previous 75years were two loving peaceful “sovereign” nations next to each other before one attacked is pure rhetoric propaganda, only fools will believe it. (1) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantura_massacre https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantura_massacre (2) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre (3) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018%E2%80%932019_Gaza_border_protests https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018%E2%80%932019_Gaza_borde...
- invalidname 3y ago
  > You mean the 40 beheaded babies or the one in the oven? As so far all these “stories” turned out to be an utter lie. No. Just those that were true, they're enough. I know a few people personally including a family who survived. Most of their village is dead or in Gaza. > On the other hand, did you know Tantura Deir Yassin. Sure. There were several such cases on both sides. I don't want to defend the indefensible. But don't pretend that it was one sided... There were awful atrocities in 1948 on both sides. To be fair, the IDF or Israel didn't really exist yet. There was no real rule book. People just came off the boat from the holocaust to fight for their lives against armies of several different countries intent on destroying them. But lets talk about the positive sides. The Arabs that did stay in Israel got full citizenship and rights. I can't say there's no discrimination but they do have a supreme court justice and were part of the last government formed in Israel. > Gaza since 2005 is an open air prison I'm with you on that. But the blame for that is on the Hamas. Israel has repeatedly tried to lift restrictions on Gaza. Just 4 weeks ago there were 17,000 Gazans in Israeli borders. Some of them illegally and Israel turned a blind eye as part of a misconception that the Hamas "calmed down". Israel removed settlements from Gaza and wants nothing more than to be out of it. The last thing Israel wants to do is invade Gaza. Notice that even with all the "restrictions" missiles etc. all went through freely. Hamas terrorists were able to travel freely to Iran where they trained in modern warfare. The narrative of a blockade on Gaza is inaccurate at best. > years ago they tried to march peacefully to the borders to show the world that there are people still in there dying slowly One of the families murdered on October 7th was a family that held annual kite flying events across the fence for solidarity with the children of Gaza. OTOH the Hamas used such marches on the fence to plant the bombs they would use to take it down on October 7th... I know quite a few Gazans and I know the majority of them want peace. As I said, the war isn't against the people of Gaza. They are the poor souls stuck in the middle. Unfortunately, the Hamas is unwilling to compromise or change. > drop that victim tone I'm not using a victim tone. That's projection. I'm using a blame tone. The fault is the Hamas's fault only... They left no choice to Israel. They intentionally chose to do that knowing full well that innocent lives will be hurt. They chose to increase the number of Palestinian victims instead of saving innocent lives. Israel doesn't have a choice here. > 18,000 tons of bombs that’s equivalent to 1.5 times the force of bomb of Hiroshima And yet Gaza stands. Israel has literal atomic bombs yet they chose weapons that would allow refined targeting to minimize the impact on civilians. It's still impossible. The cancer of Hamas is embedded deep into Gaza. The fact that so much was bombed and even with the Hamas's inflated numbers the casualties are so low, shows how careful Israel has been. > Israel is who created that resistance by occupying the land and violating all international laws That sentence is unclear but Israel doesn't violate international law. On the contrary it abuses it legally. The occupation is terrible, I'm with you on that. But it is legal. When soldiers are caught violating the law, they are jailed. Yes, I don't want to defend Israeli occupation because obviously I don't believe in that. But there's BAD and there's ridiculously WORSE. The Hamas is worse for everyone involved, Palestinians most of all. > most of these resistance fighters are orphans who have their parents killed in previous bombing The Hamas isn't a resistance movement. It's a Jihadi movement. The PLO is a resistance movement. The difference is that a resistance movement has attainable goals and is ultimately interested in peace. The Hamas is interested only in the end of Israel. The entire country. Now you might hate Israel which is within your right. But it has a lot of people who also did nothing and weren't born in 1948. When it's the choice between Israel and Hamas... That's pretty clear. It also has the greater firepower so this is clearly a suicide mission. They take that route and choose to take with them the entire population of Gaza... Also the myth of "parents killed resistance fighter" is a tired cliche. Most of them are indoctrinated from a young age e.g.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomorrow%27s_Pioneers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomorrow%27s_Pioneers > the previous 75years were two loving peaceful “sovereign” nations next to each other before one attacked is pure rhetoric propaganda, only fools will believe it. Who said that? Most of these 75 years were spent by Israel being attacked by all its neighbors. For the Gazans it was spent under Egyptian rule and for the west bank some was spent under Jordanian rule. When Israel occupied these territories there was no one to give them back to. When it signed a peace treaty with Egypt they didn't want Gaza back. Neither did Jordan. Israel did try to give these territories to the PLO. That's a historic fact. The Hamas stopped peace from happening. That's also a historic fact. I was physically there so I know it for a fact and don't need to believe the "propaganda".
johngladtj 3y ago
Yes, yes it is. It is precisely for those who you hate, who you find horrifying, that freedom of speech and other rights matter
- invalidname 3y ago
  That is such first world BS. The poor people in Gaza are being used as propaganda by the people who put them in the line of fire. And you're saying they should be free to keep doing that. It's important to protect the basic rights of people, but terrorists lose some of these rights. Literal freedom should be lost so losing freedom of speech while they aren't in custody... Not a problem IMO. This isn't the "people we hate". It's people who abuse the system by spreading hate and misinformation.

zaktoo2 3y ago

[flagged]

invalidname 3y ago
[flagged]
- ChatGTP 3y ago
  I completely disagree with you. However I did share your exact viewpoint at some stage. At the start of this conflict I was all about revenge against Hamas. I still am. But Israel has taken it too far. They really are showing very little disregard for the innocent people in Palestine. I'm sorry but they do exist. At some stage, justifying the destruction of thousands of children just to say you're trying to defeat Hamas no longer holds water. This can never be walked back. What has taken place here will never be forgotten I agree Hamas should give hostages back and surrender, but tell me what this has to do with a 5 year old child being blown to pieces again? Why should they have to pay for what some "adults" have done?
  - invalidname 3y ago
    > At the start of this conflict I was all about revenge against Hamas. I still am. But Israel has taken it too far. They really are showing very little disregard for the innocent people in Palestine. I'm sorry but they do exist. I have friends within Gaza. And guess what also hostage friends in Gaza. Don't believe Israel won't bomb the Gazans. But do believe Israel won't bomb the hostages... They don't know where they are so OBVIOUSLY they won't blow up random locations so they won't hurt them... You are falling for Hamas lies. > I agree Hamas should give hostages back and surrender, but tell me what this has to do with a 5 year old child being blown to pieces again? Why should they have to pay for what some "adults" have done? Israel never aimed at 5 year olds and specifically warned about the places where it would attack. The Hamas places civilians in these areas so they can sway minds exactly like in this case... But it's easy to get up on a high horse here... What do you suggest? A ceasefire is like a surrender. They will gather their forces and keep the poor hostages. Every ceasefire in the past was used to get more weapons and fight harder. This has to end for the Gazan people too. They have been under the yoke of the Hamas for too long.
    - ChatGTP 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - invalidname 3y ago
        [flagged]
        dang 3y ago
        You guys need to stop arguing like this on HN. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. We want thoughtful, respectful, curious conversation across differences. I know that's virtually impossible with emotions as strong as with this particular set of differences, but in that case it's best to just refrain from posting. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.
        invalidname 3y ago
        This is thoughtful and respectful by comparison. When it comes to the subject matter at hand.
      - dang 3y ago
        You guys need to stop arguing like this on HN. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. We want thoughtful, respectful, curious conversation across differences. I know that's virtually impossible with emotions as strong as with this particular set of differences, but in that case it's best to just refrain from posting. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.
        ChatGTP 3y ago
        [flagged]
  - philwelch 3y ago
    For nine months between October 2016 and July 2017, the Iraqi military, with direct support from the United States and NATO allies, fought a bloody battle to liberate the city of Mosul from ISIS. This battle caused thousands to tens of thousands of civilian casualties, many of which were inflicted by Western airstrikes and Iraqi artillery. Concurrently, between November 2016 and October 2017, Kurdish forces in Syria, alongside foreign volunteers and with Western support, fought an offensive in the Raqqa Governate of Syria to remove ISIS and capture their capital city of Raqqa. Thousands more were killed there. All told, the process of eliminating ISIS’ control over vast swaths of Iraq and Syria led to many thousands of civilian casualties. And yet, everyone seems to agree that between that outcome and the possibility of allowing ISIS to persist, this was the preferable choice between two very bad outcomes. It was a goal that, although briefly and inconsistently, was shared by the US and Russia, all sides of the Syrian Civil War, Turkey, and even Iran. Just like ISIS, allowing Hamas to persist is no longer a viable possibility. People call for a cease fire, but the last cease fire was broken by Hamas when they committed the bloodiest attack on Jewish people since the Holocaust—itself an atrocity that was only ended through a war that entailed the deaths of probably millions of German civilians at the hands of the Allies. Innocent people in Gaza do exist. They exist as hostages of Hamas. I don’t mean just the hundreds of hostages they captured on October 7th; I mean that Hamas is holding the entire population of the Gaza Strip hostage. They build underground tunnels to protect their fighters and their weapons, but nothing to protect civilians. Instead they place refugees on top of their underground command centers and weapons caches. Even when they fire their terror rockets into Israel, many of them never make it past the borders of Gaza. And when this happens, they lie, they accuse Israel of committing attacks on the innocent people of Gaza that actually happened at the hands of Hamas and their allies, and they completely fabricate numbers. Any of the numbers you see reported and attributed to a “health ministry” in Gaza are Hamas fabrications; Western media is strangely gullible about this sort of thing for reasons I can’t explain. And so claims about “the destruction of thousands of children” are little more than Hamas propaganda. Israel has held back their offensives for weeks, provided directed warnings to Gaza residents (at the expense of tipping off Hamas when and where they would strike), and given several days’ warning for Gaza residents to evacuate south of the Wadi Gaza. In response, Hamas blocked the roads and bombed Palestinian refugees traveling towards this safe zone. The only path to a peaceful future for the people of Gaza and Israel is the elimination of Hamas, just as ISIS had to be eliminated. It is a horrible situation, but it is Hamas who has made it this way and that is why Hamas needs to be destroyed. Just because they have better PR than ISIS did doesn’t change the situation on the ground.
- zaktoo2 3y ago
  This completely misses all the facts. For starters, Israel has tens of thousands of hostages in their jails, some as young as 3, without charge, without trial. Hamas is fighting a murderous occupying force, which not only does not conform to the obligations of an occupying power, but in fact intentionally breaks the laws of occupation in their lust for genocide. Never mind the anti-human restriction of calories into Gaza to keep the population it occupies on the edge of starvation permanently. Never mind the wanton murder of civilians for sport by the IDF and the illegal settlers. Then consider all the checkpoints Palestinians have to go through daily just to move from area to area. After that, consider that Israel had frequently bombed civilian infrastructure and boasted about it, including that hospital they claimed war got by a stray Palestinian rocket. Go find facts
  - invalidname 3y ago
    [flagged]
- dang 3y ago
  > YOU are a useful idiot for a genocidal entity that is murdering its own people. You can't attack other users like this, no matter how wrong they are or you feel they are. We have to ban accounts that do it, so please don't do it again. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - invalidname 3y ago
    The term "useful idiot" isn't an attack. It's a term. I wasn't calling him an "idiot". I was saying he was being used by propaganda: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot
    - dang 3y ago
      It's an obvious attack, and so is telling people that they're being "used by propaganda". We ban accounts that post like that repeatedly, so please don't do it again. You need to make your points by focusing on the topic at hand, not swiping at the person you're arguing with.

ChatGTP 3y ago

I suggest you look even further and realize both sides have committed horrific atrocities. I recently listened to the "Martyrmade" podcast and I couldn't believe it. There was a time when the British and Arabs were being driven out of Palestine using extreme violence too. Realistically, we should all be working for peace.

invalidname 3y ago
> I suggest you look even further and realize both sides have committed horrific atrocities. Israel has a lot of blame and any other time I would be with you with the pitchforks against Israel. This isn't one of those days. I suggest you learn the difference between the stuff the Hamas did on October 7th and the worst stuff Israel did in the worst instances... This isn't even remotely on the scale. Regardless, this isn't about atrocities. This is about stopping a murderous lying organization that is manipulating western media and mindshare using lies. Israel and the Palestinians did sign a peace agreement. Guess who stopped it by blowing up MANY busses... One guess...
- ChatGTP 3y ago
  Israel and the Palestinians did sign a peace agreement. Guess who stopped it by blowing up MANY busses... One guess... I also know that Israel are taking peoples homes and land. it doesn't justify terrorism but it's an act of agression in its own right. Imagine if a group came to the USA and started kicking Americans out? I'd like to see how that goes... The reality is, innocents and children are now being blown up, en masse. It doesn't matter to me "how" it's done.It matter what and to whom the victims are. Just because you're not using human shields, doesn't mean dropping a bomb from a hi-tech hundred million dollar fighter jet makes you special or absolves you from responsibility, or makes it ok. Those human shields are innocent people.
  - invalidname 3y ago
    > I also know that Israel are taking peoples homes and land. No it hasn't. You're talking about 1948 where there was a terrible war. Many Jews lost their homes. Palestinians who left the country couldn't return because of all arab countries were at war with Israel and the borders were closed. The many Jews who ran from Arab countries lost everything too but no one talks about that. I agree there should be a Palestinian state. Hamas is the #1 reason there isn't one. Israel is a distant #2 here... > Imagine if a group came to the USA and started kicking Americans out? I'd like to see how that goes... Funny you should mention that because that group is the Americans... > Just because you're not using human shields, doesn't mean dropping a bomb from a hi-tech hundred million dollar fighter jet makes you special or absolves you from responsibility, or makes it ok. It doesn't. That's why Israel tracks every bomb and every firing. There's a special prosecutor from Hauge court right now looking at everything and US involvement also makes sure Israel is taking every precaution. Unlike the Hamas, Israel can be sued for war crimes and is making sure to document every decision so it has a chain back to the intelligence that triggered every bombing. > Those human shields are innocent people. 100%. Historically, that was the reason Israel didn't deal with the Hamas in the past. That was the wrong decision in retrospect. The Hamas has to be destroyed and there's just no other way to do it. It is terrible.

nat0704 3y ago

And I suggest taking a look at Israel dropping bombs on a refugee camp (Jabalia refugee camp) they knew was overflowing with women and children. And I also suggest meditating on the fact that Israel's war on Gaza is the first war in modern history where women and children comprise the vast majority of the victims. According to CBC radio, more children have been killed in Gaza in the past 3 weeks than in all conflicts since 2019. ( Link: https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.7012927 https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.7012927 ) Perhaps it's time to start viewing both Hamas and the Government of Israel as Terrorist Organizations, since both of them now wholeheartedly engage in intentionally attacking civilian populations.

boeingUH60 3y ago
The terrorists are the side that attacked first and have a literal terrorist name.
- nat0704 3y ago
  Oh, so in your twisted world, as long as you're atacked first, you're fully justified in murdering innocent women & children, is that it?
  - candiodari 3y ago
    No, but if someone is bombing you and you move civilians literally into the area to be bombed, to accuse the other side of bombing civilians ... Then you're at fault. Not whoever dropped the bomb. In case there's any doubt what I mean: Hamas is moving Palestinian civilians (in addition to killing them outright) at gunpoint into areas Israel has announced they'll bomb. That's as bad as throwing them off buildings, shooting them, and other methods they use, and as it makes it impossible for Israel to avoid civilians, it does remove the blame from Israel.
    - enterprise_cog 3y ago
      Warped logic. The person dropping the bomb is always at fault. They know civilians are there. And please post evidence of your claim they are moving civilians in intentionally. Turns out those buildings being blown up are also people’s houses and they don’t want to leave.

tamimio 3y ago

> suggest taking a look at some of the stories on how the Hamas murdered You mean the 40 beheaded babies or the one in the oven? As so far all these “stories” turned out to be an utter lie. On the other hand, did you know Tantura (1) Deir Yassin (2) where confirmed cases of killing and raping of minors -per the vets who served that time? and around 1mill Palestinians were forced to leave their houses and homeland back in 1948, and most of them ended up where? in Gaza!, that also has their refugee camp bombed yesterday.. Gaza since 2005 is an open air prison, even years ago they tried to march peacefully to the borders to show the world that there are people still in there dying slowly (3), so drop that victim tone because a “victim” cannot cut water/electricity/internet/food/logistics instantly and proceed to drop 18,000 tons of bombs that’s equivalent to 1.5 times the force of bomb of Hiroshima. Israel is who created that resistance by occupying the land and violating all international laws, most of these resistance fighters are orphans who have their parents killed in previous bombing, and the west bank is under a strict martial law that will put you behind the bars for likes on social media, trying to isolate what happened in Oct/7th as the previous 75years were two loving peaceful “sovereign” nations next to each other before one attacked is pure rhetoric propaganda, only fools will believe it. (1) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantura_massacre https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantura_massacre (2) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre (3) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018%E2%80%932019_Gaza_border_protests https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018%E2%80%932019_Gaza_borde...

invalidname 3y ago
> You mean the 40 beheaded babies or the one in the oven? As so far all these “stories” turned out to be an utter lie. No. Just those that were true, they're enough. I know a few people personally including a family who survived. Most of their village is dead or in Gaza. > On the other hand, did you know Tantura Deir Yassin. Sure. There were several such cases on both sides. I don't want to defend the indefensible. But don't pretend that it was one sided... There were awful atrocities in 1948 on both sides. To be fair, the IDF or Israel didn't really exist yet. There was no real rule book. People just came off the boat from the holocaust to fight for their lives against armies of several different countries intent on destroying them. But lets talk about the positive sides. The Arabs that did stay in Israel got full citizenship and rights. I can't say there's no discrimination but they do have a supreme court justice and were part of the last government formed in Israel. > Gaza since 2005 is an open air prison I'm with you on that. But the blame for that is on the Hamas. Israel has repeatedly tried to lift restrictions on Gaza. Just 4 weeks ago there were 17,000 Gazans in Israeli borders. Some of them illegally and Israel turned a blind eye as part of a misconception that the Hamas "calmed down". Israel removed settlements from Gaza and wants nothing more than to be out of it. The last thing Israel wants to do is invade Gaza. Notice that even with all the "restrictions" missiles etc. all went through freely. Hamas terrorists were able to travel freely to Iran where they trained in modern warfare. The narrative of a blockade on Gaza is inaccurate at best. > years ago they tried to march peacefully to the borders to show the world that there are people still in there dying slowly One of the families murdered on October 7th was a family that held annual kite flying events across the fence for solidarity with the children of Gaza. OTOH the Hamas used such marches on the fence to plant the bombs they would use to take it down on October 7th... I know quite a few Gazans and I know the majority of them want peace. As I said, the war isn't against the people of Gaza. They are the poor souls stuck in the middle. Unfortunately, the Hamas is unwilling to compromise or change. > drop that victim tone I'm not using a victim tone. That's projection. I'm using a blame tone. The fault is the Hamas's fault only... They left no choice to Israel. They intentionally chose to do that knowing full well that innocent lives will be hurt. They chose to increase the number of Palestinian victims instead of saving innocent lives. Israel doesn't have a choice here. > 18,000 tons of bombs that’s equivalent to 1.5 times the force of bomb of Hiroshima And yet Gaza stands. Israel has literal atomic bombs yet they chose weapons that would allow refined targeting to minimize the impact on civilians. It's still impossible. The cancer of Hamas is embedded deep into Gaza. The fact that so much was bombed and even with the Hamas's inflated numbers the casualties are so low, shows how careful Israel has been. > Israel is who created that resistance by occupying the land and violating all international laws That sentence is unclear but Israel doesn't violate international law. On the contrary it abuses it legally. The occupation is terrible, I'm with you on that. But it is legal. When soldiers are caught violating the law, they are jailed. Yes, I don't want to defend Israeli occupation because obviously I don't believe in that. But there's BAD and there's ridiculously WORSE. The Hamas is worse for everyone involved, Palestinians most of all. > most of these resistance fighters are orphans who have their parents killed in previous bombing The Hamas isn't a resistance movement. It's a Jihadi movement. The PLO is a resistance movement. The difference is that a resistance movement has attainable goals and is ultimately interested in peace. The Hamas is interested only in the end of Israel. The entire country. Now you might hate Israel which is within your right. But it has a lot of people who also did nothing and weren't born in 1948. When it's the choice between Israel and Hamas... That's pretty clear. It also has the greater firepower so this is clearly a suicide mission. They take that route and choose to take with them the entire population of Gaza... Also the myth of "parents killed resistance fighter" is a tired cliche. Most of them are indoctrinated from a young age e.g.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomorrow%27s_Pioneers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomorrow%27s_Pioneers > the previous 75years were two loving peaceful “sovereign” nations next to each other before one attacked is pure rhetoric propaganda, only fools will believe it. Who said that? Most of these 75 years were spent by Israel being attacked by all its neighbors. For the Gazans it was spent under Egyptian rule and for the west bank some was spent under Jordanian rule. When Israel occupied these territories there was no one to give them back to. When it signed a peace treaty with Egypt they didn't want Gaza back. Neither did Jordan. Israel did try to give these territories to the PLO. That's a historic fact. The Hamas stopped peace from happening. That's also a historic fact. I was physically there so I know it for a fact and don't need to believe the "propaganda".

johngladtj 3y ago

Yes, yes it is. It is precisely for those who you hate, who you find horrifying, that freedom of speech and other rights matter

invalidname 3y ago
That is such first world BS. The poor people in Gaza are being used as propaganda by the people who put them in the line of fire. And you're saying they should be free to keep doing that. It's important to protect the basic rights of people, but terrorists lose some of these rights. Literal freedom should be lost so losing freedom of speech while they aren't in custody... Not a problem IMO. This isn't the "people we hate". It's people who abuse the system by spreading hate and misinformation.