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> I hope that this industry turns it around, and refocus on the prime objective: being nerds. That’s not the industry’s prime objective, it just happens to be

> I hope that this industry turns it around, and refocus on the prime objective: being nerds. That’s not the industry’s prime objective, it just happens to be who it was accessible to early on. If anything, the industry should focus on being more well rounded and less focused on being nerds.

fritzo 3y ago
I hear you that it's important for a more diverse set of people to contribute to computing as an increasingly impactful field. The way I read keyle's point is that computing is also a home for many sentient humans who feel awkward in meat space but whose creativity blossoms in regimented systems of abstract logic and in electronic workshops capable of infinitesimally cheap symbolic manipulation and storage. Computing is good for society, and it's also a therapy / practice / haven for a percentage of fringe humans.
- Clubber 3y ago
  >sentient humans who feel awkward in meat space People like that really need to work on fixing it. It can obviously be crippling to their career and lives.
  - thrway63245 3y ago
    [dead]
  - voakbasda 3y ago
    Those people are not broken and do not need fixing.
    - paulcole 3y ago
      But to be clear, they shouldn't expect high paying computer jobs to be an ivory tower for themselves so they don't have to interact with and get along with a diverse group of people (including gasp extroverts and marketers). Which is the point that the comment I originally replied to was making. "Let's keep tech for just the nerds, as it should be."
    - Clubber 3y ago
      >Those people are not broken and do not need fixing. Stop trying to put words in my mouth to bolster your point, or virtue signal, or whatever your motivations are. I never said they were broken. It's an important skill that needs to be worked on and improved, just like any other life skill.
      - paulcole 3y ago
        I mostly agree with you but you did say that this is something they need to work on. Which is definitely not true – just look at the world. Why would there be awkward weirdos if they needed to work on not being awkward weirdos?. The can choose to work on it, but they can also choose not to, by say trying to isolate themselves in an industry where they think they can minimize human interaction. There might be consequences of their choice though. Their personal life might suffer or they might get fired from their cushy job if people don't like working with them. Those things might push them to make a choice to work on their issues or they might not. I think society should create incentives that reward well-rounded people (and to an extent it already does). And I think it's important to realize that people need to do almost nothing.
        Clubber 3y ago
        I think you're trying to coddle people who have interpersonal deficiencies and it's to their detriment. >There might be consequences of their choice though. Their personal life might suffer or they might get fired from their cushy job if people don't like working with them. This is why they need to work on it. Unemployed and ostracized from the industry with no network to fall back on doesn't usually end well. >Why would there be awkward weirdos if they needed to work on not being awkward weirdos? People can be an awkward weirdos all they want, but they need to know how to turn on some facade they and other people are comfortable with when necessary.
        paulcole 3y ago
        I’m not coddling anyone. I’m simply saying the way the world really is. People have agency and they can choose to fuck themselves over as hard as they want. Either actively by drinking themselves to death or cheating on their spouse (for example) or passively by choosing to be an anti-social weirdo nobody likes who works with computers. Nobody needs to not cheat on their spouse. But they can choose to not do it. > Unemployed and ostracized from the industry with no network to fall back on doesn't usually end well. This is true, but it’s their life not yours. You can tell someone what they need to do all you want. Good luck with that btw. Get over the idea that anyone needs to do anything. Instead realize that people can choose to do whatever they’re motivated to do. And a lot of people are motivated to be miserable. And they’re not going to do anything about it. They certainly don’t need to.
    - gemstones 3y ago
      No, they don't need fixing. But computer jobs are not an inherent right to them, despite the field being uniquely suited to them in its infancy.
chiefalchemist 3y ago
The industry should focus on solving problems. More specifically solving the right problems, and in ways that are sustainable and maintainable. There an unhealthy obsession with technology for the sake of technology...but no one care. Not a single user is going to say, "I love React" or "Why didn't they use Vue?" A great technical solution to the wrong problem is no solution at all. Clients and users want their problems solved.
vdqtp3 3y ago
Why is it so easy for people to accept that someone who truly loves mechanical things and repairing them make for better mechanics, but somehow we shouldn't respect that the people who are viscerally invested in writing better code or developing better systems make better individual contributors in the IT world?
- paulcole 3y ago
  > Why is it so easy for people to accept that someone who truly loves mechanical things and repairing them make for better mechanics I don’t accept that. I knew a surgeon. He truly loved cutting people open. If you went to see him you were getting cut open. He’d find a reason. Is he a better surgeon than the one across the hall who’d refer you to somebody else if there was a decent chance non-surgical intervention would help?
  - vdqtp3 3y ago
    To use surgery as the example, I would say "someone who truly loves medicine and healing people" not "loved cutting people open", which is the opposite.
    - paulcole 3y ago
      Well yes but there goes your original argument. Don’t show me the person who loves code quality. Show me the person who likes helping people use technology.

fritzo 3y ago

I hear you that it's important for a more diverse set of people to contribute to computing as an increasingly impactful field. The way I read keyle's point is that computing is also a home for many sentient humans who feel awkward in meat space but whose creativity blossoms in regimented systems of abstract logic and in electronic workshops capable of infinitesimally cheap symbolic manipulation and storage. Computing is good for society, and it's also a therapy / practice / haven for a percentage of fringe humans.

Clubber 3y ago
>sentient humans who feel awkward in meat space People like that really need to work on fixing it. It can obviously be crippling to their career and lives.
- thrway63245 3y ago
  [dead]
- voakbasda 3y ago
  Those people are not broken and do not need fixing.
  - paulcole 3y ago
    But to be clear, they shouldn't expect high paying computer jobs to be an ivory tower for themselves so they don't have to interact with and get along with a diverse group of people (including gasp extroverts and marketers). Which is the point that the comment I originally replied to was making. "Let's keep tech for just the nerds, as it should be."
  - Clubber 3y ago
    >Those people are not broken and do not need fixing. Stop trying to put words in my mouth to bolster your point, or virtue signal, or whatever your motivations are. I never said they were broken. It's an important skill that needs to be worked on and improved, just like any other life skill.
    - paulcole 3y ago
      I mostly agree with you but you did say that this is something they need to work on. Which is definitely not true – just look at the world. Why would there be awkward weirdos if they needed to work on not being awkward weirdos?. The can choose to work on it, but they can also choose not to, by say trying to isolate themselves in an industry where they think they can minimize human interaction. There might be consequences of their choice though. Their personal life might suffer or they might get fired from their cushy job if people don't like working with them. Those things might push them to make a choice to work on their issues or they might not. I think society should create incentives that reward well-rounded people (and to an extent it already does). And I think it's important to realize that people need to do almost nothing.
      - Clubber 3y ago
        I think you're trying to coddle people who have interpersonal deficiencies and it's to their detriment. >There might be consequences of their choice though. Their personal life might suffer or they might get fired from their cushy job if people don't like working with them. This is why they need to work on it. Unemployed and ostracized from the industry with no network to fall back on doesn't usually end well. >Why would there be awkward weirdos if they needed to work on not being awkward weirdos? People can be an awkward weirdos all they want, but they need to know how to turn on some facade they and other people are comfortable with when necessary.
        paulcole 3y ago
        I’m not coddling anyone. I’m simply saying the way the world really is. People have agency and they can choose to fuck themselves over as hard as they want. Either actively by drinking themselves to death or cheating on their spouse (for example) or passively by choosing to be an anti-social weirdo nobody likes who works with computers. Nobody needs to not cheat on their spouse. But they can choose to not do it. > Unemployed and ostracized from the industry with no network to fall back on doesn't usually end well. This is true, but it’s their life not yours. You can tell someone what they need to do all you want. Good luck with that btw. Get over the idea that anyone needs to do anything. Instead realize that people can choose to do whatever they’re motivated to do. And a lot of people are motivated to be miserable. And they’re not going to do anything about it. They certainly don’t need to.
  - gemstones 3y ago
    No, they don't need fixing. But computer jobs are not an inherent right to them, despite the field being uniquely suited to them in its infancy.

chiefalchemist 3y ago

The industry should focus on solving problems. More specifically solving the right problems, and in ways that are sustainable and maintainable. There an unhealthy obsession with technology for the sake of technology...but no one care. Not a single user is going to say, "I love React" or "Why didn't they use Vue?" A great technical solution to the wrong problem is no solution at all. Clients and users want their problems solved.

vdqtp3 3y ago

Why is it so easy for people to accept that someone who truly loves mechanical things and repairing them make for better mechanics, but somehow we shouldn't respect that the people who are viscerally invested in writing better code or developing better systems make better individual contributors in the IT world?

paulcole 3y ago
> Why is it so easy for people to accept that someone who truly loves mechanical things and repairing them make for better mechanics I don’t accept that. I knew a surgeon. He truly loved cutting people open. If you went to see him you were getting cut open. He’d find a reason. Is he a better surgeon than the one across the hall who’d refer you to somebody else if there was a decent chance non-surgical intervention would help?
- vdqtp3 3y ago
  To use surgery as the example, I would say "someone who truly loves medicine and healing people" not "loved cutting people open", which is the opposite.
  - paulcole 3y ago
    Well yes but there goes your original argument. Don’t show me the person who loves code quality. Show me the person who likes helping people use technology.