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Nobody is opposed to relevant ads on TV (I mean, not any more than they're opposed to ads in general). it's the means by which they make them relevant. No one

Nobody is opposed to relevant ads on TV (I mean, not any more than they're opposed to ads in general). it's the means by which they make them relevant. No one would be cool if Facebook sent agents to your home each night to rifle through your drawers to learn about you and "tailor ads to you and make them more relevant". That's the problem, the data-collecting and spying.

ninjin 3y ago
Indeed, "opposed to relevant ads" is just a rhetorical trick or misunderstanding of the "opposing" position, akin to: "murdering babies" for abortion, "allowing criminals to go free" for maintaining privacy standards, "artists not getting paid" for opposing "modern" copyright, etc. The truth of the matter is that many positions are far more nuanced and complex; all in shades of grey.
- mynameisash 3y ago
  Poisoning the well: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_well https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_well
throw101010 3y ago
And the potential use of this data by governments around the world for less innocuous purposes than "showing relevant ads". It is not too surprising that companies who can profit from it push the data collection as far as they can. It is more surprising/troubling how the people in general seem to either have completely capitulated due to the generalization of the data collection... or fail to understand the implications it can have. Thankfully some people in EU courts still think that privacy is a right.
- corbezzoli 3y ago
  Got it, so why not outlaw that? For all we know, they can continue doing what but not show us relevant ads. I suppose twitter knows nothing about me and shows me stupid gaming ads all the time. I click on them exactly 0 times. Show me something relevant to what I see on HN and probably will even find it useful. If I can’t block all ads, at least show me something useful.
  - chefandy 3y ago
    Well, a good start would be a ban specifically on the behavioral advertising on Facebook and Instagram which in recent US elections exposed dangerous consequences when bad actors were thrown into the mix. Many people wrote millions of words about it over the better part of the past decade if you are inexplicably unfamiliar with the problem. The idea that anyone could effectively outlaw political influence by covert operatives directed by nation states is patently ridiculous, so you have to look at the mechanism they used to do it. And, voila! That's the topic of this post.
cheriot 3y ago
I don't get the analogy. Facebook is using data you give them when using the app. How is that similar to invading your home?
- piva00 3y ago
  No, they're using the data that FB trackers installed on pages to track conversion, display ads, etc. collects from you. Even if you do not use nor ever used anything produced by Facebook/Meta.
- jpalawaga 3y ago
  facebook is using a lot more data about you than 'when you use the app'. every share button on the internet is basically a tracking pixel. who asked for that? nevermind network effects. nevermind intrusive, subversive attempts at tracking like the SDK shenangians. nevermind contact book uploads. no, they're not invading your home. Gathering information about you from friends who DID let them in? Rifling through your garbage? A chase car to surveil your movements? Perhaps those are more apt comparisons.
- password4321 3y ago
  Also offline: Facebook is combining the information they have with information from data collection companies like Datalogix, Acxiom, Epsilon, and BlueKai ... way more than you'd think, including race, gender, economic status, buying habits, and more https://lifehacker.com/how-facebook-uses-your-data-to-target-ads-even-offline-5994380 https://lifehacker.com/how-facebook-uses-your-data-to-target... (2013)
- stubish 3y ago
  Facebook is violating your right to privacy in both cases. You could voluntarily hand over your data or voluntarily allow them into your home. But the EU isn't going to allow Facebook or anyone to force people to give up their rights. It is illegal unless Facebook also allows use without giving up their right to privacy.
vivekd 3y ago
I donno, I know I'm in the minority but I agree with the parent. Facebook isn't going to people's homes and rifling through drawers. They're using information people willigly share in their profiles. They're not selling personally identifiable information. They're selling generalized group info on categories people fall into for targeted ads. I don't understand how this is a privacy violation or unethical. Especially given Facebook isn't hiding what it's doing, they're open about what they're doing. I assume the customers are informed and are consenting to this in exchange for free use of Facebook's services. I think it was wrong for Ubuntu to sell user data to Amazon because their users weren't informed. Some people choose Linux for privacy reasons and that trust was violated. No one who values privacy would willingly use Facebook. Facebook doesn't hide what it does, it's a consensual sharing of information. They even have a big button on their site inviting their users to try targeted ads. Everything they do is in the open.
- photonbeam 3y ago
  > Facebook isn't going to people's homes and rifling through drawers When they start correlating with external payments sources they are
  - fallingknife 3y ago
    Seems like this is not a FB issue, but a payments industry issue. Payment data should absolutely be illegal for processors to sell.
    - Nextgrid 3y ago
      Why not both? If someone is buying a firearm off the black market, the buyer is in the wrong but so is whoever is selling it to them without doing a proper background check.
- jurynulifcation 3y ago
  lmao no, you're either misinformed or a bad actor. when they start tracking me through services they don't own, when they retain data on me indefinitely and purchase other data sources to do entity resolution, when they refuse to let me see what they have on me and refuse to let me set policies on what I'm comfortable with them having, when they partner with Walmart and CCTV providers to spy on me as I go throughout my business when they literally try to predict my behavior with the data they have on me, when they sell my data without my permission to God knows who... they're filthy degenerate stalkers and anyone who works in the industry ought to be shunned by polite society. we should not suffer stalkers.
2muchcoffeeman 3y ago
It doesn’t even work. They steal all my data and ads and suggestions are still garbage.
Daz1 3y ago
"No one would be cool if Facebook sent agents to your home each night to rifle through your drawers to learn about you and "tailor ads to you and make them more relevant" Not sure why we need a bizarre analogy here? The actual premise is straightforward and doesn't need abstraction.

ninjin 3y ago

Indeed, "opposed to relevant ads" is just a rhetorical trick or misunderstanding of the "opposing" position, akin to: "murdering babies" for abortion, "allowing criminals to go free" for maintaining privacy standards, "artists not getting paid" for opposing "modern" copyright, etc. The truth of the matter is that many positions are far more nuanced and complex; all in shades of grey.

mynameisash 3y ago
Poisoning the well: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_well https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_well

throw101010 3y ago

And the potential use of this data by governments around the world for less innocuous purposes than "showing relevant ads". It is not too surprising that companies who can profit from it push the data collection as far as they can. It is more surprising/troubling how the people in general seem to either have completely capitulated due to the generalization of the data collection... or fail to understand the implications it can have. Thankfully some people in EU courts still think that privacy is a right.

corbezzoli 3y ago
Got it, so why not outlaw that? For all we know, they can continue doing what but not show us relevant ads. I suppose twitter knows nothing about me and shows me stupid gaming ads all the time. I click on them exactly 0 times. Show me something relevant to what I see on HN and probably will even find it useful. If I can’t block all ads, at least show me something useful.
- chefandy 3y ago
  Well, a good start would be a ban specifically on the behavioral advertising on Facebook and Instagram which in recent US elections exposed dangerous consequences when bad actors were thrown into the mix. Many people wrote millions of words about it over the better part of the past decade if you are inexplicably unfamiliar with the problem. The idea that anyone could effectively outlaw political influence by covert operatives directed by nation states is patently ridiculous, so you have to look at the mechanism they used to do it. And, voila! That's the topic of this post.

cheriot 3y ago

I don't get the analogy. Facebook is using data you give them when using the app. How is that similar to invading your home?

piva00 3y ago
No, they're using the data that FB trackers installed on pages to track conversion, display ads, etc. collects from you. Even if you do not use nor ever used anything produced by Facebook/Meta.
jpalawaga 3y ago
facebook is using a lot more data about you than 'when you use the app'. every share button on the internet is basically a tracking pixel. who asked for that? nevermind network effects. nevermind intrusive, subversive attempts at tracking like the SDK shenangians. nevermind contact book uploads. no, they're not invading your home. Gathering information about you from friends who DID let them in? Rifling through your garbage? A chase car to surveil your movements? Perhaps those are more apt comparisons.
password4321 3y ago
Also offline: Facebook is combining the information they have with information from data collection companies like Datalogix, Acxiom, Epsilon, and BlueKai ... way more than you'd think, including race, gender, economic status, buying habits, and more https://lifehacker.com/how-facebook-uses-your-data-to-target-ads-even-offline-5994380 https://lifehacker.com/how-facebook-uses-your-data-to-target... (2013)
stubish 3y ago
Facebook is violating your right to privacy in both cases. You could voluntarily hand over your data or voluntarily allow them into your home. But the EU isn't going to allow Facebook or anyone to force people to give up their rights. It is illegal unless Facebook also allows use without giving up their right to privacy.

vivekd 3y ago

I donno, I know I'm in the minority but I agree with the parent. Facebook isn't going to people's homes and rifling through drawers. They're using information people willigly share in their profiles. They're not selling personally identifiable information. They're selling generalized group info on categories people fall into for targeted ads. I don't understand how this is a privacy violation or unethical. Especially given Facebook isn't hiding what it's doing, they're open about what they're doing. I assume the customers are informed and are consenting to this in exchange for free use of Facebook's services. I think it was wrong for Ubuntu to sell user data to Amazon because their users weren't informed. Some people choose Linux for privacy reasons and that trust was violated. No one who values privacy would willingly use Facebook. Facebook doesn't hide what it does, it's a consensual sharing of information. They even have a big button on their site inviting their users to try targeted ads. Everything they do is in the open.

photonbeam 3y ago
> Facebook isn't going to people's homes and rifling through drawers When they start correlating with external payments sources they are
- fallingknife 3y ago
  Seems like this is not a FB issue, but a payments industry issue. Payment data should absolutely be illegal for processors to sell.
  - Nextgrid 3y ago
    Why not both? If someone is buying a firearm off the black market, the buyer is in the wrong but so is whoever is selling it to them without doing a proper background check.
jurynulifcation 3y ago
lmao no, you're either misinformed or a bad actor. when they start tracking me through services they don't own, when they retain data on me indefinitely and purchase other data sources to do entity resolution, when they refuse to let me see what they have on me and refuse to let me set policies on what I'm comfortable with them having, when they partner with Walmart and CCTV providers to spy on me as I go throughout my business when they literally try to predict my behavior with the data they have on me, when they sell my data without my permission to God knows who... they're filthy degenerate stalkers and anyone who works in the industry ought to be shunned by polite society. we should not suffer stalkers.

2muchcoffeeman 3y ago

It doesn’t even work. They steal all my data and ads and suggestions are still garbage.

Daz1 3y ago

"No one would be cool if Facebook sent agents to your home each night to rifle through your drawers to learn about you and "tailor ads to you and make them more relevant" Not sure why we need a bizarre analogy here? The actual premise is straightforward and doesn't need abstraction.