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> My take on it is that if you are not agnostic, at best, you're a "religious atheist" who presents belief (that there are no deities) as fact No, the main non

> My take on it is that if you are not agnostic, at best, you're a "religious atheist" who presents belief (that there are no deities) as fact No, the main non-agnostic atheist belief is "The current religions are bullshit" which there is plenty of evidence for, so it is a much more rational belief than belief in any religion. Therefore it can't be classified as a religion since there are strong rational arguments behind it.

kelnos 3y ago
That's not my experience at all. The main non-agnostic atheism I've seen has been pretty hard to the "deities don't exist, full stop" side of the spectrum. Also you don't need to be agnostic or non-agnostic, or even an atheist, to believe that the current religions are bullshit.
- MisterBastahrd 3y ago
  Until someone can prove that a deity exists, I don't have any need to go looking for one. Their absence in a world that cries out to them every day speaks volumes about their existence.
  - tomrod 3y ago
    You succinctly explained how I feel. I was very religious earlier in life, giving my life and scant monies, raising my family to the same. Now, after evolving my views quite a bit due to firsthand observation and third hand research regarding the absolute bullshit religious pour on real marginalized communities, I'm apatheist (lean agnostic atheist). I legitimately don't care if there is a diety. If there is and they have need of my fealty, fine, but I'm not going to claim adherence nor follow belief to satisfy the whims of mortals claiming to be mouthpieces when a real deity has capacity to reveal themselves. I'll never again outsource my morality.
- tomrod 3y ago
  That's the problem with relying on our observations only. It biases us to reality.
mensetmanusman 3y ago
It’s not rational to believe in free will either, so nothing is rational.
- tomrod 3y ago
  Rationality is defined as choices being able to be made that are both complete (all options under consideration can be understood) and transitive (if I choose A over B, and B over C, then I choose A over C). Most often people exhibit bounded rationality, as "completeness" is a heavy cognitive burden and transitivity is hard on the margins. Neither components of rationality require belief, and both recognize that choices (free will) can be made, suggesting more nuance to your argument is needed.

kelnos 3y ago

That's not my experience at all. The main non-agnostic atheism I've seen has been pretty hard to the "deities don't exist, full stop" side of the spectrum. Also you don't need to be agnostic or non-agnostic, or even an atheist, to believe that the current religions are bullshit.

MisterBastahrd 3y ago
Until someone can prove that a deity exists, I don't have any need to go looking for one. Their absence in a world that cries out to them every day speaks volumes about their existence.
- tomrod 3y ago
  You succinctly explained how I feel. I was very religious earlier in life, giving my life and scant monies, raising my family to the same. Now, after evolving my views quite a bit due to firsthand observation and third hand research regarding the absolute bullshit religious pour on real marginalized communities, I'm apatheist (lean agnostic atheist). I legitimately don't care if there is a diety. If there is and they have need of my fealty, fine, but I'm not going to claim adherence nor follow belief to satisfy the whims of mortals claiming to be mouthpieces when a real deity has capacity to reveal themselves. I'll never again outsource my morality.
tomrod 3y ago
That's the problem with relying on our observations only. It biases us to reality.

mensetmanusman 3y ago

It’s not rational to believe in free will either, so nothing is rational.

tomrod 3y ago
Rationality is defined as choices being able to be made that are both complete (all options under consideration can be understood) and transitive (if I choose A over B, and B over C, then I choose A over C). Most often people exhibit bounded rationality, as "completeness" is a heavy cognitive burden and transitivity is hard on the margins. Neither components of rationality require belief, and both recognize that choices (free will) can be made, suggesting more nuance to your argument is needed.