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> A religious school that frames these values along the lines of "what G-d expects of me" would totally work for me As a gay man who grew up religious (in publ

by cj 3y ago

> A religious school that frames these values along the lines of "what G-d expects of me" would totally work for me As a gay man who grew up religious (in public schools), “what god expects of me” was not only oppressing but also the source of a lot of self-doubt, self-hate, depression, and anxiety. (Thankfully I quickly ditched the religion and paved my own path - very content with life now!) > I don't want my kids to "not see it" I get where you’re coming from. But also, you can’t force kids to see things a certain way. There’s no amount of schooling or indoctrination that can force them to adopt the outcome you’re expecting of them. Setting a good example yourself by how and with whom you parent is probably 10x more impactful than the school you sent them to.

rayiner 3y ago
> As a gay man who grew up religious (in public schools), “what god expects of me” was not only oppressing but also the source of a lot of self-doubt, self-hate, depression, and anxiety. (Thankfully I quickly ditched the religion and paved my own path - very content with life now!) Okay, for you, but what about the 90% of the population that shouldn’t forge their own path? Society actually needs them to do what’s expected of them.
- rchaud 3y ago
  That's what capitalism's for.
- croes 3y ago
  >90% population that shouldn’t forge their own path? Who decides who these 90% are? >Society actually needs them to do what’s expected of them. You would be surprised how many people do what society needs without forcing them.
  - rayiner 3y ago
    > Who decides who these 90% are? Elders. > You would be surprised how many people do what society needs without forcing them. It’s surprising how many don’t. TFR for white people in LA (to use an example of a place where social norms have been upended quite thoroughly) is just over 1, and more than half the adults are unmarried. Without immigration from more religious and rigid Latin American countries, LA would be shrinking in half each generation.
    - serf 3y ago
      >Without immigration from more religious and rigid Latin American countries, LA would be shrinking in half each generation. i'm sure that religion is the only reason why immigrants into the United States would want to have kids. /s There's definitely no US-centric financial/legal/immigration-related reasons, right? /s
      - rayiner 3y ago
        Comparing different immigrant groups suggests it’s religious. Muslim Americans have similar fertility rates to Latinos, but East Asians have similar fertility rates to secular whites. But Muslims and East Asians have similarly high levels of education and income to each other, in contrast to Latinos. This is a phenomenon across the developed world. Permissive western societies are outsourcing the job of perpetuating the population to Catholics and Muslims, just like they outsource industrial production to China. Permissive societies don’t appear to be sustainable without that arbitrage.
        heylook 3y ago
        > Permissive western societies are outsourcing the job of perpetuating the population Why does the job of perpetuating the population need to be done at all? At what levels? Why those levels? Does it matter where that population lives or their quality of life? Why or why not?
        vel0city 3y ago
        The best bet for fragments of culture, beliefs, way of life, world view, sense of morality, genetic variations, etc to exist as an average person is to have kids and instill the best parts of those values into them as a child. If you're fine with your people's history just disappearing from the world, feel free to never reproduce.
        heylook 3y ago
        Sure, but like, that's not what we're talking about. OP says western society is "outsourcing the job of perpetuating the population," as if there is some shirking of responsibility going on, or we all need to care about this for some reason. That's macro-level, not the personal choice to have children or not. No one is asking them to do that, so it's unreasonable to foist responsibility back on western society and then shame them for not fulfilling that responsibility. Why is maintaining the human population at or above present levels something that so obviously needs to be done?
- thfuran 3y ago
  By "shouldn't forge their own path", I assume you mean something other than "should continue to ostracize and oppress 10% here, 50% there", so what do you mean?

by cj 3y ago

rayiner 3y ago

> As a gay man who grew up religious (in public schools), “what god expects of me” was not only oppressing but also the source of a lot of self-doubt, self-hate, depression, and anxiety. (Thankfully I quickly ditched the religion and paved my own path - very content with life now!) Okay, for you, but what about the 90% of the population that shouldn’t forge their own path? Society actually needs them to do what’s expected of them.

rchaud 3y ago
That's what capitalism's for.
croes 3y ago
>90% population that shouldn’t forge their own path? Who decides who these 90% are? >Society actually needs them to do what’s expected of them. You would be surprised how many people do what society needs without forcing them.
- rayiner 3y ago
  > Who decides who these 90% are? Elders. > You would be surprised how many people do what society needs without forcing them. It’s surprising how many don’t. TFR for white people in LA (to use an example of a place where social norms have been upended quite thoroughly) is just over 1, and more than half the adults are unmarried. Without immigration from more religious and rigid Latin American countries, LA would be shrinking in half each generation.
  - serf 3y ago
    >Without immigration from more religious and rigid Latin American countries, LA would be shrinking in half each generation. i'm sure that religion is the only reason why immigrants into the United States would want to have kids. /s There's definitely no US-centric financial/legal/immigration-related reasons, right? /s
    - rayiner 3y ago
      Comparing different immigrant groups suggests it’s religious. Muslim Americans have similar fertility rates to Latinos, but East Asians have similar fertility rates to secular whites. But Muslims and East Asians have similarly high levels of education and income to each other, in contrast to Latinos. This is a phenomenon across the developed world. Permissive western societies are outsourcing the job of perpetuating the population to Catholics and Muslims, just like they outsource industrial production to China. Permissive societies don’t appear to be sustainable without that arbitrage.
      - heylook 3y ago
        > Permissive western societies are outsourcing the job of perpetuating the population Why does the job of perpetuating the population need to be done at all? At what levels? Why those levels? Does it matter where that population lives or their quality of life? Why or why not?
        vel0city 3y ago
        The best bet for fragments of culture, beliefs, way of life, world view, sense of morality, genetic variations, etc to exist as an average person is to have kids and instill the best parts of those values into them as a child. If you're fine with your people's history just disappearing from the world, feel free to never reproduce.
        heylook 3y ago
        Sure, but like, that's not what we're talking about. OP says western society is "outsourcing the job of perpetuating the population," as if there is some shirking of responsibility going on, or we all need to care about this for some reason. That's macro-level, not the personal choice to have children or not. No one is asking them to do that, so it's unreasonable to foist responsibility back on western society and then shame them for not fulfilling that responsibility. Why is maintaining the human population at or above present levels something that so obviously needs to be done?
thfuran 3y ago
By "shouldn't forge their own path", I assume you mean something other than "should continue to ostracize and oppress 10% here, 50% there", so what do you mean?