4 ms·

AngleLock, improvement on T-slot aluminum framing system (2022)

36 points by mleonhard 3y ago

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
londons_explore 3y ago
All of the systems are fine. Sure, this one might be slightly better, but if it costs even a cent extra then it isn't worth it. Any system has sufficient rigidity as long as you do the bolts up properly.
vidanay 3y ago
"Hey, I have an idea! You know that extruded t-slot stuff?" "Yeah" "OK, cool. Now, you know how USB plugs AREN'T symmetrical and everyone really hates that?" "Yeah" "So, let's make NON-SYMMETRICAL t-slot!" "Umm, ok, sure. (?)"
- brainburp 3y ago
  It looks symmetrical. Note that the bottom of bore (?) is a curve, so the bolt can insert at 20 degrees in any direction.
  - vidanay 3y ago
    The entire gimmick of the product is that the bolt is on an angle. This means that the nut and plates are not symmetrical and both the designer and assembler must pay attention to the direction the bolt points so that the wrench is not blocked by another component. It also makes it impossible to have a mounting point in any sort of "deep well" since all angles except perfectly perpendicular will be obstructed. The 20 degree angle should be accommodated by a ball-end hex wrench, but it still must be taken into consideration in more situations than a perpendicular bolt. I'm also not a fan of the fact that the angled bolt will apply unequal loading to the flanges of the nut.
    - CamperBob2 3y ago
      Also not clear why you couldn't get 90% of the way there by just filling the conventional T-slot more completely. We'll have to wait for some ME types to chime in, I guess, but I don't get this at all. I could see this solution being better if you only had one fastener along the length of the pieces being fit together, but in many/most cases there will be more than one fastener. Seems like a real-world T-slot system will end up with fewer unwanted degrees of freedom than the ad is telling us to expect.
      - johnwalkr 3y ago
        I'm an ME and will share my thoughts. I think this product does make a lot of sense and I think the claims are true if a bit exaggerated. With T-slots, first of all, relying on friction only is totally valid but it is true that with the standard accessories like brackets, you can overcome the friction with a much smaller load than the structural members can handle. To fix this you end up with more cross-members, corner plates, more brackets, etc. The t-slot assemblies do not have more degrees of freedom, it's just that in some directions of loading, they fail to prevent movement at a low value. Anglelock uses friction too (just like anything assembled with fasteners) but it is more clever about it. You could make the female threaded parts that go inside t-slot extrusions to fit more precisely, longer, with more fasteners, etc (and this is common). You could also add a protrusion to the accessories to fit inside the slot. But these obviously need a small clearances for all 3 parts to mate. Rotation would technically be prevented eventually, but stiffness at the instant a load is applied would not actually be reliably added. Reducing clearances is a non-starter. With great cost you could do it for a very small assembly, but it wouldn't be possible to go down this path as a general solution. The tolerances don't work at scale (at any cost). At first glance you could make a very minor modification and add a chamfer to each groove in a T-slot, and a mating convex feature to the accessory parts such as brackets. But if you actually try and make this, You will also run into tolerance issues. You will have to choose to have clearance at the chamfer, making it useless to add stiffness, or clearance at the outside of the extrusion, making it useless to locate parts relative to the extrusion and also taking away the most useful contact area for stiffness. ___________ |___ ___| ___\___/___ | _\ /_ | | |_______| | | | The anglelock solution is pretty genius. By having the fastener angled by 20 degrees (parallel to the chamfer), you can now have the required clearances for assembly but still locate precisely in 2 planes and apply a clamping force in multiple planes. Both of these features are not found in normal t-slots. There are nicely designed details about this but you can also just think about the angle of the fastener and realize the preload (let's call it P) of the fastener must ultimately make a vertical clamping force to the t-slot of Pcos(20) and a horizontal clamping force to the t-slot of Psin(20). The second video here[2] does a good job of explaining it, especially at 1:45. I would probably prefer anglelock over t-slot or a weldment for something like a one-off cnc machine frame. All of that being said, a huge demerit of this vs t-slot is it is not as readily available and you need a quote to order it. With t-slot extrusions you can configure an assembly with Misumi and within a couple of clicks order pre-machined extrusions and all of the related parts, and have it in a couple of days. But, checking the profiles it looks like anglelock profiles are also compatible with standard t-slot stuff. It also looks like the anglelock stuff is compatible with t-slot profiles (without all of the benefits of course) [1]https://anglelock.com/collections/hardware/m6x10-39mm-bright-zinc-2-hole-std-nut-10-pk#product https://anglelock.com/collections/hardware/m6x10-39mm-bright... [2]https://anglelock.com/pages/videos https://anglelock.com/pages/videos
dfc 3y ago
Has anyone used this in person? Is the bolt proud of surface when fully screwed in?
progbits 3y ago
OK how much does it cost? > Contact us for quote. I see, thanks and bye. I'll buy regular tslot system from one of hundreds of local resellers who have large stock and public pricing.
jojohohanon 3y ago
It seems that you could add mechanical rigidity and remove the freedom of rotation by adding washers into the mix: washers that have small extrusions to for into the slots next to the bolt. Parallel, perpendicular, or at dome fixed angle. But I imagine these aren’t needed since everyone who builds with nails or t slots realizes the rotation must be countered not in the joint, but in external bracing. (Aka triangles)
JustLurking2022 3y ago
This seems like it should be identified as an Ad, rather than an organic post.
- mleonhard 3y ago
  I was researching options for a small project and found this company. Their claims were interesting, but I have not studied mechanical engineering. I posted on HN hoping that someone knowledgeable would comment and confirm or refute the company's claims.

36 points by mleonhard 3y ago

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

All of the systems are fine. Sure, this one might be slightly better, but if it costs even a cent extra then it isn't worth it. Any system has sufficient rigidity as long as you do the bolts up properly.

vidanay 3y ago

"Hey, I have an idea! You know that extruded t-slot stuff?" "Yeah" "OK, cool. Now, you know how USB plugs AREN'T symmetrical and everyone really hates that?" "Yeah" "So, let's make NON-SYMMETRICAL t-slot!" "Umm, ok, sure. (?)"

brainburp 3y ago
It looks symmetrical. Note that the bottom of bore (?) is a curve, so the bolt can insert at 20 degrees in any direction.
- vidanay 3y ago
  The entire gimmick of the product is that the bolt is on an angle. This means that the nut and plates are not symmetrical and both the designer and assembler must pay attention to the direction the bolt points so that the wrench is not blocked by another component. It also makes it impossible to have a mounting point in any sort of "deep well" since all angles except perfectly perpendicular will be obstructed. The 20 degree angle should be accommodated by a ball-end hex wrench, but it still must be taken into consideration in more situations than a perpendicular bolt. I'm also not a fan of the fact that the angled bolt will apply unequal loading to the flanges of the nut.
  - CamperBob2 3y ago
    Also not clear why you couldn't get 90% of the way there by just filling the conventional T-slot more completely. We'll have to wait for some ME types to chime in, I guess, but I don't get this at all. I could see this solution being better if you only had one fastener along the length of the pieces being fit together, but in many/most cases there will be more than one fastener. Seems like a real-world T-slot system will end up with fewer unwanted degrees of freedom than the ad is telling us to expect.
    - johnwalkr 3y ago
      I'm an ME and will share my thoughts. I think this product does make a lot of sense and I think the claims are true if a bit exaggerated. With T-slots, first of all, relying on friction only is totally valid but it is true that with the standard accessories like brackets, you can overcome the friction with a much smaller load than the structural members can handle. To fix this you end up with more cross-members, corner plates, more brackets, etc. The t-slot assemblies do not have more degrees of freedom, it's just that in some directions of loading, they fail to prevent movement at a low value. Anglelock uses friction too (just like anything assembled with fasteners) but it is more clever about it. You could make the female threaded parts that go inside t-slot extrusions to fit more precisely, longer, with more fasteners, etc (and this is common). You could also add a protrusion to the accessories to fit inside the slot. But these obviously need a small clearances for all 3 parts to mate. Rotation would technically be prevented eventually, but stiffness at the instant a load is applied would not actually be reliably added. Reducing clearances is a non-starter. With great cost you could do it for a very small assembly, but it wouldn't be possible to go down this path as a general solution. The tolerances don't work at scale (at any cost). At first glance you could make a very minor modification and add a chamfer to each groove in a T-slot, and a mating convex feature to the accessory parts such as brackets. But if you actually try and make this, You will also run into tolerance issues. You will have to choose to have clearance at the chamfer, making it useless to add stiffness, or clearance at the outside of the extrusion, making it useless to locate parts relative to the extrusion and also taking away the most useful contact area for stiffness. ___________ |___ ___| ___\___/___ | _\ /_ | | |_______| | | | The anglelock solution is pretty genius. By having the fastener angled by 20 degrees (parallel to the chamfer), you can now have the required clearances for assembly but still locate precisely in 2 planes and apply a clamping force in multiple planes. Both of these features are not found in normal t-slots. There are nicely designed details about this but you can also just think about the angle of the fastener and realize the preload (let's call it P) of the fastener must ultimately make a vertical clamping force to the t-slot of Pcos(20) and a horizontal clamping force to the t-slot of Psin(20). The second video here[2] does a good job of explaining it, especially at 1:45. I would probably prefer anglelock over t-slot or a weldment for something like a one-off cnc machine frame. All of that being said, a huge demerit of this vs t-slot is it is not as readily available and you need a quote to order it. With t-slot extrusions you can configure an assembly with Misumi and within a couple of clicks order pre-machined extrusions and all of the related parts, and have it in a couple of days. But, checking the profiles it looks like anglelock profiles are also compatible with standard t-slot stuff. It also looks like the anglelock stuff is compatible with t-slot profiles (without all of the benefits of course) [1]https://anglelock.com/collections/hardware/m6x10-39mm-bright-zinc-2-hole-std-nut-10-pk#product https://anglelock.com/collections/hardware/m6x10-39mm-bright... [2]https://anglelock.com/pages/videos https://anglelock.com/pages/videos

dfc 3y ago

Has anyone used this in person? Is the bolt proud of surface when fully screwed in?

progbits 3y ago

OK how much does it cost? > Contact us for quote. I see, thanks and bye. I'll buy regular tslot system from one of hundreds of local resellers who have large stock and public pricing.

jojohohanon 3y ago

It seems that you could add mechanical rigidity and remove the freedom of rotation by adding washers into the mix: washers that have small extrusions to for into the slots next to the bolt. Parallel, perpendicular, or at dome fixed angle. But I imagine these aren’t needed since everyone who builds with nails or t slots realizes the rotation must be countered not in the joint, but in external bracing. (Aka triangles)

JustLurking2022 3y ago

This seems like it should be identified as an Ad, rather than an organic post.

mleonhard 3y ago
I was researching options for a small project and found this company. Their claims were interesting, but I have not studied mechanical engineering. I posted on HN hoping that someone knowledgeable would comment and confirm or refute the company's claims.