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This is explicitly not what the Catholic Church teaches. There is a commonly used rhetorical device in Catholic education asking whether, in fact, anyone has go

by c0pium 3y ago

This is explicitly not what the Catholic Church teaches. There is a commonly used rhetorical device in Catholic education asking whether, in fact, anyone has gone to hell (the answer being that we can’t know but it’s very possible that it’s no). This is well summed up by Mother Teresa in her famous response that we are not called to be successful, but faithful. There are a lot other religions which are similar in this regard. The real issue is that some (many?) who outwardly profess to adhere to a particular religion are totally ignorant of that religions teachings.

chaostheory 3y ago
The Catholic Church is a liberal outlier. It’s so far away from the median that many if not most Christian sects do not consider it as “Christian”. One major difference is that Catholicism acknowledges evolution as a truth so it’s no surprise that they consider us as heretics. For context, I was raised as a Catholic, had well over a decade of theological study (including university level classes), and I’ve had significant contact and relationships with other Christians in the Southern US. Most religious people do not have the privilege to attend a more intellectual leaning parochial school. Weekly 30 min sermons are not enough, but that is the norm for most religious people.
- seti0Cha 3y ago
  Being an educated Catholic, you're probably already aware that the Catholic church makes up about 50% of Christians. Throw in the Orthodox church, which says it knows where the church is, but doesn't know where it is not, and you're up to 60%. Throw in the Anglicans and the Methodists, who certainly share the relevant opinions regarding salvation, and now you're over 65%. The remaining denominations are a mixed bag but even ignoring the rest, it's hard to say how you could describe the Catholic church as a Christian outlier. Rather, it is all these tiny denominations which are outliers.
  - chaostheory 3y ago
    I was referring to only the US since the news article is also US centric, and I’m sure that most of the commenters are also referring to their experience in North America, since HN is primarily a US centric website. Your statistics are global for Christianity which includes a lot of developing countries. In the US, Catholics only make up 20% of Christians in America.
    - seti0Cha 3y ago
      Are you? Elsewhere you describe this beliefs as "one of the main tenants of religion" and say "The crux of Christianity is that if you don't accept Jesus...". It sounds like you are making claims not just about Christianity as a whole, but about religion in general. If you're trying to make claims about what Americans believe about Christianity, you're expressing yourself very poorly.
      - chaostheory 3y ago
        My points are clear and to the point where as you keep making claims that you fail to support. Yes, I was only referring to the US for all the reasons I’ve already listed.
bigstrat2003 3y ago
Not just the Catholic church, but Christianity in general. It is very much standard Christian doctrine that everyone is flawed, nobody has earned salvation, and that it is a freely given gift from God out of love. To criticize Christianity as being mainly about "if you don't follow these rules you'll go to hell" (as chaostheory has) is to demonstrate a lack of understanding of Christianity.
- chaostheory 3y ago
  The crux of Christianity is that if you don’t accept Jesus Christ as your Savior, you’re going to hell (or purgatory for Catholics). How am I wrong? What exactly am I missing that you’re alluding to but fail to elaborate?
  - tomrod 3y ago
    Nothing, this is one of those rhetorical devices for which one sacrifices their moral agency to the collective. Your read is of a clear phrase even a child understands, its the sensitive adult that seeks to deny what is clear in front of them due to distaste.
    - seti0Cha 3y ago
      Bad take. The Christian faith, outside of fundamentalist sects, is not built around clear-to-a-child interpretations of individual phrases in the bible. The bible is a product of the Christian faith, not it's source. In other words, it's teachings are defined by those sensitive adults, not the naive childlike readers of things they wrote.
      - tomrod 3y ago
        > The Christian faith, outside of fundamentalist sects, is not built around clear-to-a-child interpretations of individual phrases in the bible. To classify your argumentation, this is a "No-True-Scotsman."
        3y ago

by c0pium 3y ago

chaostheory 3y ago

The Catholic Church is a liberal outlier. It’s so far away from the median that many if not most Christian sects do not consider it as “Christian”. One major difference is that Catholicism acknowledges evolution as a truth so it’s no surprise that they consider us as heretics. For context, I was raised as a Catholic, had well over a decade of theological study (including university level classes), and I’ve had significant contact and relationships with other Christians in the Southern US. Most religious people do not have the privilege to attend a more intellectual leaning parochial school. Weekly 30 min sermons are not enough, but that is the norm for most religious people.

seti0Cha 3y ago
Being an educated Catholic, you're probably already aware that the Catholic church makes up about 50% of Christians. Throw in the Orthodox church, which says it knows where the church is, but doesn't know where it is not, and you're up to 60%. Throw in the Anglicans and the Methodists, who certainly share the relevant opinions regarding salvation, and now you're over 65%. The remaining denominations are a mixed bag but even ignoring the rest, it's hard to say how you could describe the Catholic church as a Christian outlier. Rather, it is all these tiny denominations which are outliers.
- chaostheory 3y ago
  I was referring to only the US since the news article is also US centric, and I’m sure that most of the commenters are also referring to their experience in North America, since HN is primarily a US centric website. Your statistics are global for Christianity which includes a lot of developing countries. In the US, Catholics only make up 20% of Christians in America.
  - seti0Cha 3y ago
    Are you? Elsewhere you describe this beliefs as "one of the main tenants of religion" and say "The crux of Christianity is that if you don't accept Jesus...". It sounds like you are making claims not just about Christianity as a whole, but about religion in general. If you're trying to make claims about what Americans believe about Christianity, you're expressing yourself very poorly.
    - chaostheory 3y ago
      My points are clear and to the point where as you keep making claims that you fail to support. Yes, I was only referring to the US for all the reasons I’ve already listed.

bigstrat2003 3y ago

Not just the Catholic church, but Christianity in general. It is very much standard Christian doctrine that everyone is flawed, nobody has earned salvation, and that it is a freely given gift from God out of love. To criticize Christianity as being mainly about "if you don't follow these rules you'll go to hell" (as chaostheory has) is to demonstrate a lack of understanding of Christianity.

chaostheory 3y ago
The crux of Christianity is that if you don’t accept Jesus Christ as your Savior, you’re going to hell (or purgatory for Catholics). How am I wrong? What exactly am I missing that you’re alluding to but fail to elaborate?
- tomrod 3y ago
  Nothing, this is one of those rhetorical devices for which one sacrifices their moral agency to the collective. Your read is of a clear phrase even a child understands, its the sensitive adult that seeks to deny what is clear in front of them due to distaste.
  - seti0Cha 3y ago
    Bad take. The Christian faith, outside of fundamentalist sects, is not built around clear-to-a-child interpretations of individual phrases in the bible. The bible is a product of the Christian faith, not it's source. In other words, it's teachings are defined by those sensitive adults, not the naive childlike readers of things they wrote.
    - tomrod 3y ago
      > The Christian faith, outside of fundamentalist sects, is not built around clear-to-a-child interpretations of individual phrases in the bible. To classify your argumentation, this is a "No-True-Scotsman."
      - 3y ago