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The math situation is a clear signal that school administration/education departments do not prioritize education, and in fact find it unfair that some students

The math situation is a clear signal that school administration/education departments do not prioritize education, and in fact find it unfair that some students actually manage to learn something, and want to stop that. It's not that they don't have the resources or enough interest to fill classes; it's that they don't want kids to learn too much. It's fair to infer that this attitude is not limited to math. Ostensibly education is why the schools exist. If they're not going to do that, let's at least let the kids go play in the park or something. They'd probably get better socialization that way anyway.

NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
> Ostensibly education is why the schools exist. Does anyone actually believe this? It would be more than naive to do so. On r/teachers just the other day, I was reading about one of them complaining that all they really are, are baby-sitters so they parents can work dayshift. Even they know what they're for. But if everyone were to suddenly be willing to speak this truth aloud, it'd be too absurd to continue. People are shamed and guilted into paying the taxes for education. No one could be shamed or guilted into paying for someone else's teenager daycare. > The math situation is a clear signal that school administration/education departments do not prioritize education, and in fact find it unfair that some students actually manage to learn something, and want to stop that. I was in first grade in 1980 (1981?). It was like this for me the entire run of it. Wanting to learn more, hungry for it, with them rationing what I could learn to tiny little crumbs a few times throughout the school year. Studies were paced out for the dumbest kid in class. I think I made it to my sophomore year of highschool before I gave up, and when I did, that was my fault too. It was bad even then, and at least back then they were still pretending that it was about education.
- taway1237 3y ago
  >Does anyone actually believe this? It would be more than naive to do so. GP clearly believes it, since they wrote this. I believe it too, and I think this is a mainstream belief, not a "more than naive" one. Your one anecdote based on a Reddit rant (and, I assume, personal bias) is not nearly convincing enough to change my mind.
  - NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
    I would not dispute that it's a mainstream belief. But I don't think that this has ever been a good counter-argument to "it's a naive belief". My anecdote, such as it is, is hardly uncommon. It is in fact, nearly a cliche at this point, or a stereotype. I sincerely doubt that me having communicated it to you is your first encounter with the idea. As to your mind, I don't wish to change it. I am content with you remaining naive. My own children receive advantage from this. Please continue to screw up the public education system for decades, my entire lineage can only prosper the longer this continues.
- ethbr1 3y ago
  > On r/teachers just the other day, I was reading about one of them complaining that all they really are, are baby-sitters so they parents can work dayshift. Even they know what they're for. So we're clear, when a teacher complains about being daycare, what they mean is they're: - an educator - an administrative assistant - daycare The first of those is a reasonable expectation of the job. The second two, less-so. And so you complain about the unreasonable things, but don't mention the reasonable one... because it's literally the job. Taking kvetching about ancillary mandates to mean that education isn't happening or isn't still the primary job is weird.
  - NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
    That isn't what the person meant. They pointed out, clearly, multiple times, that though they were trained as an educator, no education takes place. Leaving only the "daycare" part. When someone disputes this, what they really mean is that they are uncomfortable with the realization that it is daycare, that it hurts them to consider that something so profoundly part of their status quo is rotten to the core, and it makes their own lives seem dishonest. They would rather than misperception that education still occurs to persist unchallenged. > because it's literally the job. Hasn't been, for years. It's not improving/reverting. You're willfully blind to it. > or isn't still the primary job is weird. Please don't mistake me. I'm not claiming that education has been secondary to other concerns. I'm saying that it doesn't happen at any significant rate at all, isn't in anyone's list of priorities, and that when it does happen it is accidental and unrepeatable.
    - ethbr1 3y ago
      > When someone disputes this, what they really mean is that they are uncomfortable with the realization that it is daycare, that it hurts them to consider that something so profoundly part of their status quo is rotten to the core, and it makes their own lives seem dishonest. They would rather than misperception that education still occurs to persist unchallenged. Or, they disagree, and they have their own thoughts. > Please don't mistake me. I'm not claiming that education has been secondary to other concerns. I'm saying that it doesn't happen at any significant rate at all, isn't in anyone's list of priorities, and that when it does happen it is accidental and unrepeatable. As someone with two parents, multiple family members, and past partners in the profession of education, early childhood and other... we will have to agree to disagree. I'm sure your opinions are formed from your own experiences. Mine disagree.
dahart 3y ago
> It’s not that they don’t have the resources […] it’s that they don’t want kids to learn too much. Hehe, this is simply not true. Where did this conspiracy theory come from, and why do you think this poorly of people who are spending their time trying to help kids despite low pay and a constant barrage of harsh critical opinions from parents, law-makers, and hordes of armchair critics on the internet? You’re making wild assumptions and using the worst possible motivation to build a straw man criticism. If you can do better, maybe you should get involved or consider being a school administrator? I don’t like it when there is less support for the motivated students, and it happened to me in high school. But you are aware the situation we’re discussing is due to needing to educate 100% of the student body up to a minimum standard, right? Public schools are almost always underfunded and short-staffed. Nobody’s trying to actively prevent the smart kids from learning, they’re trying to avoid using all their resources teaching the kids that don’t need it as badly from leaving the larger group of kids who’s families have less money completely behind. Your comment is completely ignoring what happens to the students who are behind in math already, and how to get them enough help. What is always true is that what’s best for the group isn’t necessarily best for the individual. In this case, you’re suggesting the opposite of prioritizing education for all, and thus you’re not talking about prioritizing education, you’re talking about prioritizing resources toward students that already meet the minimum standards. Schools, teachers, and administrators are trying to prioritize education for all, and they have an explicit duty to get every last kid up to basic minimum standards. If they don’t meet those goals of getting the bottom half of their classes passing, they could lose their jobs and they would be failing to prioritize education for all.
- scarmig 3y ago
  > Nobody’s trying to actively prevent the smart kids from learning This is false. Why else ban teaching algebra district-wide to 8th graders? The explicit justification is that it helps some students get too far ahead of other students and causes inequitable access to take calculus classes later on, which is considered a bad thing. Teachers even complain if you help your child accelerate through the textbook for the year.
  - dahart 3y ago

NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago

> Ostensibly education is why the schools exist. Does anyone actually believe this? It would be more than naive to do so. On r/teachers just the other day, I was reading about one of them complaining that all they really are, are baby-sitters so they parents can work dayshift. Even they know what they're for. But if everyone were to suddenly be willing to speak this truth aloud, it'd be too absurd to continue. People are shamed and guilted into paying the taxes for education. No one could be shamed or guilted into paying for someone else's teenager daycare. > The math situation is a clear signal that school administration/education departments do not prioritize education, and in fact find it unfair that some students actually manage to learn something, and want to stop that. I was in first grade in 1980 (1981?). It was like this for me the entire run of it. Wanting to learn more, hungry for it, with them rationing what I could learn to tiny little crumbs a few times throughout the school year. Studies were paced out for the dumbest kid in class. I think I made it to my sophomore year of highschool before I gave up, and when I did, that was my fault too. It was bad even then, and at least back then they were still pretending that it was about education.

taway1237 3y ago
>Does anyone actually believe this? It would be more than naive to do so. GP clearly believes it, since they wrote this. I believe it too, and I think this is a mainstream belief, not a "more than naive" one. Your one anecdote based on a Reddit rant (and, I assume, personal bias) is not nearly convincing enough to change my mind.
- NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
  I would not dispute that it's a mainstream belief. But I don't think that this has ever been a good counter-argument to "it's a naive belief". My anecdote, such as it is, is hardly uncommon. It is in fact, nearly a cliche at this point, or a stereotype. I sincerely doubt that me having communicated it to you is your first encounter with the idea. As to your mind, I don't wish to change it. I am content with you remaining naive. My own children receive advantage from this. Please continue to screw up the public education system for decades, my entire lineage can only prosper the longer this continues.
ethbr1 3y ago
> On r/teachers just the other day, I was reading about one of them complaining that all they really are, are baby-sitters so they parents can work dayshift. Even they know what they're for. So we're clear, when a teacher complains about being daycare, what they mean is they're: - an educator - an administrative assistant - daycare The first of those is a reasonable expectation of the job. The second two, less-so. And so you complain about the unreasonable things, but don't mention the reasonable one... because it's literally the job. Taking kvetching about ancillary mandates to mean that education isn't happening or isn't still the primary job is weird.
- NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
  That isn't what the person meant. They pointed out, clearly, multiple times, that though they were trained as an educator, no education takes place. Leaving only the "daycare" part. When someone disputes this, what they really mean is that they are uncomfortable with the realization that it is daycare, that it hurts them to consider that something so profoundly part of their status quo is rotten to the core, and it makes their own lives seem dishonest. They would rather than misperception that education still occurs to persist unchallenged. > because it's literally the job. Hasn't been, for years. It's not improving/reverting. You're willfully blind to it. > or isn't still the primary job is weird. Please don't mistake me. I'm not claiming that education has been secondary to other concerns. I'm saying that it doesn't happen at any significant rate at all, isn't in anyone's list of priorities, and that when it does happen it is accidental and unrepeatable.
  - ethbr1 3y ago
    > When someone disputes this, what they really mean is that they are uncomfortable with the realization that it is daycare, that it hurts them to consider that something so profoundly part of their status quo is rotten to the core, and it makes their own lives seem dishonest. They would rather than misperception that education still occurs to persist unchallenged. Or, they disagree, and they have their own thoughts. > Please don't mistake me. I'm not claiming that education has been secondary to other concerns. I'm saying that it doesn't happen at any significant rate at all, isn't in anyone's list of priorities, and that when it does happen it is accidental and unrepeatable. As someone with two parents, multiple family members, and past partners in the profession of education, early childhood and other... we will have to agree to disagree. I'm sure your opinions are formed from your own experiences. Mine disagree.

dahart 3y ago

> It’s not that they don’t have the resources […] it’s that they don’t want kids to learn too much. Hehe, this is simply not true. Where did this conspiracy theory come from, and why do you think this poorly of people who are spending their time trying to help kids despite low pay and a constant barrage of harsh critical opinions from parents, law-makers, and hordes of armchair critics on the internet? You’re making wild assumptions and using the worst possible motivation to build a straw man criticism. If you can do better, maybe you should get involved or consider being a school administrator? I don’t like it when there is less support for the motivated students, and it happened to me in high school. But you are aware the situation we’re discussing is due to needing to educate 100% of the student body up to a minimum standard, right? Public schools are almost always underfunded and short-staffed. Nobody’s trying to actively prevent the smart kids from learning, they’re trying to avoid using all their resources teaching the kids that don’t need it as badly from leaving the larger group of kids who’s families have less money completely behind. Your comment is completely ignoring what happens to the students who are behind in math already, and how to get them enough help. What is always true is that what’s best for the group isn’t necessarily best for the individual. In this case, you’re suggesting the opposite of prioritizing education for all, and thus you’re not talking about prioritizing education, you’re talking about prioritizing resources toward students that already meet the minimum standards. Schools, teachers, and administrators are trying to prioritize education for all, and they have an explicit duty to get every last kid up to basic minimum standards. If they don’t meet those goals of getting the bottom half of their classes passing, they could lose their jobs and they would be failing to prioritize education for all.

scarmig 3y ago
> Nobody’s trying to actively prevent the smart kids from learning This is false. Why else ban teaching algebra district-wide to 8th graders? The explicit justification is that it helps some students get too far ahead of other students and causes inequitable access to take calculus classes later on, which is considered a bad thing. Teachers even complain if you help your child accelerate through the textbook for the year.
- dahart 3y ago