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> the current mode of "anything goes, you can be whatever you feel like and there's no judgement of any of your actions." That doesn't match reality. Do you ha

> the current mode of "anything goes, you can be whatever you feel like and there's no judgement of any of your actions." That doesn't match reality. Do you have kids in public school? Of course they judge actions—especially those that harm others. Sometimes that's called social-emotional learning, one of the things that Florida politicians have tried to make a boogeyman. We're certainly willing to punish kids based on their actions.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
xyzelement 3y ago
I meant something different by "anything goes." I am ~40 and was born in Eastern Europe -- but even in the US, back then there was still a strong value that a good life a combination of having a family and raising the next generation, ability to work to support your family and contribution to society through your work. Whereas even in "my time" these values would have resonated with the tone in a public school, I am pretty sure that's not going to be the case today. But these values remain for me very central, and I would sacrifice a lot to ensure my kids are educated in an environment that supports them. A religious school that frames these values along the lines of "what G-d expects of me" would totally work for me separate from whether I literally believed in the religion. "Anything goes" by contrast to this is the vibe that it's fine to not do any of these things. It's funny/sad to see eg on HN folks saying "oh, I don't see why it's important to have children, or to have my work matter." Right, but the fact that you "don't see it" is sad to me (you do you but I don't have to think it's great) and I don't want my kids to "not see it"
- axlee 3y ago
  > I meant something different by "anything goes." I am ~40 and was born in Eastern Europe -- but even in the US, back then there was still a strong value that a good life a combination of having a family and raising the next generation, ability to work to support your family and contribution to society through your work. Whereas even in "my time" these values would have resonated with the tone in a public school, I am pretty sure that's not going to be the case today. I'm not aware of that class in the curriculum. Is it supposed to be taught during math, history, geology or sports?
  - xyzelement 3y ago
    // I'm not aware of that class in the curriculum. These topics come up at the very least in: literature, history, social studies, sex ed, etc...
- adriand 3y ago
  This is a very typical opinion that many religious people have about non-religious people, but I think it betrays a fundamental misunderstanding. You get your values from religion but this is not the only source of values. People readily receive values via tradition, culture, example, etc. And then there are those thoughtful (and often somewhat tortured, like myself) people who engage in a lot of soul-searching in order to develop their own set of values. A lack of religion does not mean a lack of values. In fact, judging by the behaviour of many religious people, it often seems to be the opposite. In terms of the values you cited, such as raising the next generation and contributing to society, these are extremely common values found in a wide spectrum of society and indeed, are heavily emphasized in virtually any education system you care to examine!
  - claytongulick 3y ago
    I agree with your point. One of the primary benefits (and drawbacks) of religion is that it provides a set of packaged values that are straightforward and generally work pretty well for a lot of people. Thousands of years of refinement went into the development of those packages. They're mostly effective and convenient for a lot of people. Determining values from first principles is hard, and there are a lot of easy mistakes along the way. You can easily find yourself trapped in nihilism or moral relativity or one of the other common philosophy potholes. It's kind of like a happy meal vs cooking from scratch. We all know cooking is healthier and cheaper, but sometimes we just don't have time, and there's no guarantee on how it will turn out.
    - mathgeek 3y ago
      Did not expect a philosophical comparison of happy meals coming with toys versus having to wash your own dishes, but here we are.
    - jrumbut 3y ago
      > Determining values from first principles is hard, and there are a lot of easy mistakes along the way. It's a shame they decided to put a bunch of weird stuff in Happy Meals because I think you're right about this. Not providing guidance to children is at least as bad as providing overly dogmatic guidance.
- cj 3y ago
  > A religious school that frames these values along the lines of "what G-d expects of me" would totally work for me As a gay man who grew up religious (in public schools), “what god expects of me” was not only oppressing but also the source of a lot of self-doubt, self-hate, depression, and anxiety. (Thankfully I quickly ditched the religion and paved my own path - very content with life now!) > I don't want my kids to "not see it" I get where you’re coming from. But also, you can’t force kids to see things a certain way. There’s no amount of schooling or indoctrination that can force them to adopt the outcome you’re expecting of them. Setting a good example yourself by how and with whom you parent is probably 10x more impactful than the school you sent them to.
  - rayiner 3y ago
    > As a gay man who grew up religious (in public schools), “what god expects of me” was not only oppressing but also the source of a lot of self-doubt, self-hate, depression, and anxiety. (Thankfully I quickly ditched the religion and paved my own path - very content with life now!) Okay, for you, but what about the 90% of the population that shouldn’t forge their own path? Society actually needs them to do what’s expected of them.
    - rchaud 3y ago
      That's what capitalism's for.
    - croes 3y ago
      >90% population that shouldn’t forge their own path? Who decides who these 90% are? >Society actually needs them to do what’s expected of them. You would be surprised how many people do what society needs without forcing them.
      - rayiner 3y ago
        > Who decides who these 90% are? Elders. > You would be surprised how many people do what society needs without forcing them. It’s surprising how many don’t. TFR for white people in LA (to use an example of a place where social norms have been upended quite thoroughly) is just over 1, and more than half the adults are unmarried. Without immigration from more religious and rigid Latin American countries, LA would be shrinking in half each generation.
- rchaud 3y ago
  It may be funny to you, but consider that many Americans have encountered "men of God" who've turned out to be your garden-variety dickhead using religious fervor as a fig leaf to mask their bad actions.
prometheus76 3y ago
How do we judge harm? And over what timeline? Is a coach who drives the team in practice, making them suffer, in preparation for a game: is that harmful? The athletes are suffering! Is a parent harming their child when they ground the child for being late multiple times? Is that harm? The child is suffering! Is short-term harm in the interest of long-term benefit still harmful? What if you are unaware of the harm of your actions? Are you still justified? "Do no harm" is a terrible metric to use for guiding one's actions. Libertarianism (which is the source of the "no harm" principle) is completely oblivious to the notion that humans are complex, interdependent, and not purely self-determined.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

xyzelement 3y ago

I meant something different by "anything goes." I am ~40 and was born in Eastern Europe -- but even in the US, back then there was still a strong value that a good life a combination of having a family and raising the next generation, ability to work to support your family and contribution to society through your work. Whereas even in "my time" these values would have resonated with the tone in a public school, I am pretty sure that's not going to be the case today. But these values remain for me very central, and I would sacrifice a lot to ensure my kids are educated in an environment that supports them. A religious school that frames these values along the lines of "what G-d expects of me" would totally work for me separate from whether I literally believed in the religion. "Anything goes" by contrast to this is the vibe that it's fine to not do any of these things. It's funny/sad to see eg on HN folks saying "oh, I don't see why it's important to have children, or to have my work matter." Right, but the fact that you "don't see it" is sad to me (you do you but I don't have to think it's great) and I don't want my kids to "not see it"

axlee 3y ago
> I meant something different by "anything goes." I am ~40 and was born in Eastern Europe -- but even in the US, back then there was still a strong value that a good life a combination of having a family and raising the next generation, ability to work to support your family and contribution to society through your work. Whereas even in "my time" these values would have resonated with the tone in a public school, I am pretty sure that's not going to be the case today. I'm not aware of that class in the curriculum. Is it supposed to be taught during math, history, geology or sports?
- xyzelement 3y ago
  // I'm not aware of that class in the curriculum. These topics come up at the very least in: literature, history, social studies, sex ed, etc...
adriand 3y ago
This is a very typical opinion that many religious people have about non-religious people, but I think it betrays a fundamental misunderstanding. You get your values from religion but this is not the only source of values. People readily receive values via tradition, culture, example, etc. And then there are those thoughtful (and often somewhat tortured, like myself) people who engage in a lot of soul-searching in order to develop their own set of values. A lack of religion does not mean a lack of values. In fact, judging by the behaviour of many religious people, it often seems to be the opposite. In terms of the values you cited, such as raising the next generation and contributing to society, these are extremely common values found in a wide spectrum of society and indeed, are heavily emphasized in virtually any education system you care to examine!
- claytongulick 3y ago
  I agree with your point. One of the primary benefits (and drawbacks) of religion is that it provides a set of packaged values that are straightforward and generally work pretty well for a lot of people. Thousands of years of refinement went into the development of those packages. They're mostly effective and convenient for a lot of people. Determining values from first principles is hard, and there are a lot of easy mistakes along the way. You can easily find yourself trapped in nihilism or moral relativity or one of the other common philosophy potholes. It's kind of like a happy meal vs cooking from scratch. We all know cooking is healthier and cheaper, but sometimes we just don't have time, and there's no guarantee on how it will turn out.
  - mathgeek 3y ago
    Did not expect a philosophical comparison of happy meals coming with toys versus having to wash your own dishes, but here we are.
  - jrumbut 3y ago
    > Determining values from first principles is hard, and there are a lot of easy mistakes along the way. It's a shame they decided to put a bunch of weird stuff in Happy Meals because I think you're right about this. Not providing guidance to children is at least as bad as providing overly dogmatic guidance.
cj 3y ago
> A religious school that frames these values along the lines of "what G-d expects of me" would totally work for me As a gay man who grew up religious (in public schools), “what god expects of me” was not only oppressing but also the source of a lot of self-doubt, self-hate, depression, and anxiety. (Thankfully I quickly ditched the religion and paved my own path - very content with life now!) > I don't want my kids to "not see it" I get where you’re coming from. But also, you can’t force kids to see things a certain way. There’s no amount of schooling or indoctrination that can force them to adopt the outcome you’re expecting of them. Setting a good example yourself by how and with whom you parent is probably 10x more impactful than the school you sent them to.
- rayiner 3y ago
  > As a gay man who grew up religious (in public schools), “what god expects of me” was not only oppressing but also the source of a lot of self-doubt, self-hate, depression, and anxiety. (Thankfully I quickly ditched the religion and paved my own path - very content with life now!) Okay, for you, but what about the 90% of the population that shouldn’t forge their own path? Society actually needs them to do what’s expected of them.
  - rchaud 3y ago
    That's what capitalism's for.
  - croes 3y ago
    >90% population that shouldn’t forge their own path? Who decides who these 90% are? >Society actually needs them to do what’s expected of them. You would be surprised how many people do what society needs without forcing them.
    - rayiner 3y ago
      > Who decides who these 90% are? Elders. > You would be surprised how many people do what society needs without forcing them. It’s surprising how many don’t. TFR for white people in LA (to use an example of a place where social norms have been upended quite thoroughly) is just over 1, and more than half the adults are unmarried. Without immigration from more religious and rigid Latin American countries, LA would be shrinking in half each generation.
rchaud 3y ago
It may be funny to you, but consider that many Americans have encountered "men of God" who've turned out to be your garden-variety dickhead using religious fervor as a fig leaf to mask their bad actions.

prometheus76 3y ago

How do we judge harm? And over what timeline? Is a coach who drives the team in practice, making them suffer, in preparation for a game: is that harmful? The athletes are suffering! Is a parent harming their child when they ground the child for being late multiple times? Is that harm? The child is suffering! Is short-term harm in the interest of long-term benefit still harmful? What if you are unaware of the harm of your actions? Are you still justified? "Do no harm" is a terrible metric to use for guiding one's actions. Libertarianism (which is the source of the "no harm" principle) is completely oblivious to the notion that humans are complex, interdependent, and not purely self-determined.