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> I know you just said “religion,” but I can only speak about Christianity as I’m deeply familiar with it. I believe you when you speak of the bad experiences

by bigstrat2003 3y ago

> I know you just said “religion,” but I can only speak about Christianity as I’m deeply familiar with it. I believe you when you speak of the bad experiences you had, but you seem to think that what you've seen is the only (or at least the typical) manifestation of Christianity. But that isn't true, and if you do indeed believe it's true I respectfully suggest you aren't deeply familiar with Christianity the way you believe. I am a Christian, and I was raised Christian. I have never once seen a community such as you describe. I realize they exist (everyone knows about the WBC, for instance), but they aren't the norm. Christians I have known aren't trying to indoctrinate anyone, and they are quite happy to entertain respectful discussion and debate about their faith. They are only human, of course, and like all humans they don't wish to constantly debate things they settled for themselves ages ago (so you are sometimes going to get individuals who shut you down). But on the whole Christians are perfectly willing to engage in introspection or intellectual debate to the same extent anyone else is (because let's not forget, many people don't do introspection or intellectual debate of any topic). > It’s slowly dying in every developed country because it doesn’t make sense when logic and science are applied. You are welcome to your opinion, but it stands at odds with the fact that there have been many Christian intellectuals throughout history. Scientists, theologians, and philosophers have all found that their faith still makes perfect sense in the context of their intellectual pursuits.

chaostheory 3y ago
Christianity is not one singular entity. There are many different sects that can drastically vary from each other. Fundamentalist Christians like the Southern Baptists are not going to be as accepting or open minded as the more liberal Christian sects such as Catholicism.
- vitus 3y ago
  It's odd that you describe Catholicism as liberal, when so many of its characteristics are heavily rooted in tradition. It's really only Pope Francis from this past decade who stopped shunning homosexuality and describing it as an illness (even if he upholds the church's teachings that same-sex marriage is an abomination), expressed openness to ordaining married men as priests, and suggested forgiveness for divorcees who have since remarried, but even he has his limits. He still views gender transition as a sin, upholds the Catholic Church's longstanding opposition to birth control (the pill, condoms) in favor of abstinence, and opposes abortion. And there are many Catholics in the US who do not view him as their pope, preferring Benedict XVI and especially John Paul II. There are cardinals in the US who have advocated for denying the current US president communion due to his support for abortion (he claims that he does not personally support abortion due to his faith, but would not impose his belief system on others). Yes, Catholicism might not be as unyielding as Christian evangelism or fundamentalism. But it's by no means the most accepting of faiths.
  - chaostheory 3y ago
    You’re not wrong and I agree with a lot of your points. When I refer to Catholicism as “liberal” I am comparing it to other Christian sects and even other monotheistic religions such as Islam. For example, unlike other Christian sects, Catholicism accepts concepts such as evolution. > Yes, Catholicism might not be as unyielding as Christian evangelism or fundamentalism. Maybe you meant to direct your comment to someone else because it sounds like we agree?
    - vitus 3y ago
      My point was that there are Christian denominations that are accepting of others as they are, and aren't trying to impose their narrow worldview on others. Catholicism isn't one of them. For instance: Episcopalians support gender and racial equality, as do the Anglicans they're an offshoot of. Presbyterians are similarly accepting, even if they haven't made an official statement on that front. Reform Judaism similarly is an attempt at reconciling historical traditions with the need to exist in a modern world. It's hard to ascribe a particular ideology to Islam because it varies widely based on its practitioners and their interpretations (as is the case with Baptists, Lutherans, and many other religions where there is not a central authority). Certainly we see very oppressive policies in a number of Middle Eastern countries, but in the US, especially in the past decades we've seen an alignment of American Muslims with the Democratic party and more liberal / progressive policies (largely due to anti-Muslim rhetoric from the right post-9/11). A few surveys from Pew: https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2015/12/21/where-christian-churches-stand-on-gay-marriage/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2015/12/21/where-chr... https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2015/12/02/religious-groups-policies-on-transgender-members-vary-widely/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2015/12/02/religious... https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2016/06/21/where-major-religious-groups-stand-on-abortion/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2016/06/21/where-maj...
      - chaostheory 3y ago
        > Episcopalians support gender and racial equality, as do the Anglicans they're an offshoot of. Presbyterians are similarly accepting If my memory is still ok, I remember those sects splitting due to differences in those beliefs among their members
croes 3y ago
>Scientists, theologians, and philosophers have all found that their faith still makes perfect sense in the context of their intellectual pursuits. Because their is a simple trick: God made it so. But most of the time they ignore the flaws of their believe of god's characteristics like Omnipresence, Omnipotence, Omniscience etc. The world is in pretty bad shape if it's created by an omnipotent omniscient deity. Greek mythology would be a more fitting explanation.
- mensetmanusman 3y ago
  Who are we to judge? Our consciousness exists for a blink of time.
  - tomrod 3y ago
    We are the only ones who can judge and exercise moral reasoning, as we are the universe experiencing itself.
- arkey 3y ago
  > The world is in pretty bad shape if it's created by an omnipotent omniscient deity. Not like we would have anything to do with it? If I handcraft a beautiful wooden toy and I give it as a present to a 5-year-old, and they have a tantrum and break it (accident or not), is the state of the toy a testimony to my identity or ability as a craftsman? Or maybe I should have never given the toy as a present?
  - croes 3y ago
    If you are omniscient, and knew what would happen before you gave the present to the 5-year-old, even knew before you got the present, even knew before the kid was born then it's definitely your fault. Why dies the kid behaves like that in the first place and why is the toy breakable. Shouldn't higher standards apply to an omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient being? If the world was created by greek gods, ok. They are full of human traits and errors, jealous, vain etc. But the perfect abrahamic god?
MisterBastahrd 3y ago
> Christians I have known aren't trying to indoctrinate anyone Every Christian who was ever born was indoctrinated to become one. Except Paul, who was the bronze age equivalent of Jim Bakker.

chaostheory 3y ago

Christianity is not one singular entity. There are many different sects that can drastically vary from each other. Fundamentalist Christians like the Southern Baptists are not going to be as accepting or open minded as the more liberal Christian sects such as Catholicism.

vitus 3y ago
It's odd that you describe Catholicism as liberal, when so many of its characteristics are heavily rooted in tradition. It's really only Pope Francis from this past decade who stopped shunning homosexuality and describing it as an illness (even if he upholds the church's teachings that same-sex marriage is an abomination), expressed openness to ordaining married men as priests, and suggested forgiveness for divorcees who have since remarried, but even he has his limits. He still views gender transition as a sin, upholds the Catholic Church's longstanding opposition to birth control (the pill, condoms) in favor of abstinence, and opposes abortion. And there are many Catholics in the US who do not view him as their pope, preferring Benedict XVI and especially John Paul II. There are cardinals in the US who have advocated for denying the current US president communion due to his support for abortion (he claims that he does not personally support abortion due to his faith, but would not impose his belief system on others). Yes, Catholicism might not be as unyielding as Christian evangelism or fundamentalism. But it's by no means the most accepting of faiths.
- chaostheory 3y ago
  You’re not wrong and I agree with a lot of your points. When I refer to Catholicism as “liberal” I am comparing it to other Christian sects and even other monotheistic religions such as Islam. For example, unlike other Christian sects, Catholicism accepts concepts such as evolution. > Yes, Catholicism might not be as unyielding as Christian evangelism or fundamentalism. Maybe you meant to direct your comment to someone else because it sounds like we agree?
  - vitus 3y ago
    My point was that there are Christian denominations that are accepting of others as they are, and aren't trying to impose their narrow worldview on others. Catholicism isn't one of them. For instance: Episcopalians support gender and racial equality, as do the Anglicans they're an offshoot of. Presbyterians are similarly accepting, even if they haven't made an official statement on that front. Reform Judaism similarly is an attempt at reconciling historical traditions with the need to exist in a modern world. It's hard to ascribe a particular ideology to Islam because it varies widely based on its practitioners and their interpretations (as is the case with Baptists, Lutherans, and many other religions where there is not a central authority). Certainly we see very oppressive policies in a number of Middle Eastern countries, but in the US, especially in the past decades we've seen an alignment of American Muslims with the Democratic party and more liberal / progressive policies (largely due to anti-Muslim rhetoric from the right post-9/11). A few surveys from Pew: https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2015/12/21/where-christian-churches-stand-on-gay-marriage/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2015/12/21/where-chr... https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2015/12/02/religious-groups-policies-on-transgender-members-vary-widely/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2015/12/02/religious... https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2016/06/21/where-major-religious-groups-stand-on-abortion/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2016/06/21/where-maj...
    - chaostheory 3y ago
      > Episcopalians support gender and racial equality, as do the Anglicans they're an offshoot of. Presbyterians are similarly accepting If my memory is still ok, I remember those sects splitting due to differences in those beliefs among their members

croes 3y ago

>Scientists, theologians, and philosophers have all found that their faith still makes perfect sense in the context of their intellectual pursuits. Because their is a simple trick: God made it so. But most of the time they ignore the flaws of their believe of god's characteristics like Omnipresence, Omnipotence, Omniscience etc. The world is in pretty bad shape if it's created by an omnipotent omniscient deity. Greek mythology would be a more fitting explanation.

mensetmanusman 3y ago
Who are we to judge? Our consciousness exists for a blink of time.
- tomrod 3y ago
  We are the only ones who can judge and exercise moral reasoning, as we are the universe experiencing itself.
arkey 3y ago
> The world is in pretty bad shape if it's created by an omnipotent omniscient deity. Not like we would have anything to do with it? If I handcraft a beautiful wooden toy and I give it as a present to a 5-year-old, and they have a tantrum and break it (accident or not), is the state of the toy a testimony to my identity or ability as a craftsman? Or maybe I should have never given the toy as a present?
- croes 3y ago
  If you are omniscient, and knew what would happen before you gave the present to the 5-year-old, even knew before you got the present, even knew before the kid was born then it's definitely your fault. Why dies the kid behaves like that in the first place and why is the toy breakable. Shouldn't higher standards apply to an omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient being? If the world was created by greek gods, ok. They are full of human traits and errors, jealous, vain etc. But the perfect abrahamic god?

MisterBastahrd 3y ago

> Christians I have known aren't trying to indoctrinate anyone Every Christian who was ever born was indoctrinated to become one. Except Paul, who was the bronze age equivalent of Jim Bakker.