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How do you expect companies to understand how their products are used for improvement purposes without telemetry? Honest question.

mftrhu 3y ago
They could ask their users.
- mo_42 3y ago
  Or observe people how they interact with the browser. If they would observe my parents, they could learn a lot that cannot be captured by telemetry.
- kwanbix 3y ago
  So how many users do you have to ask for it to be statistically relevant for a user base of 360 million users?
  - eviks 3y ago
    Hundreds? Increasing user base doesn't matter much for sample size
JohnFen 3y ago
Others have answered this, but I just wanted to point out the software devs have been managing to understand how their products are used for improvement purposes from long before telemetry was a realistic possibility. Telemetry doesn't make it possible, it makes it less expensive.
- kwanbix 3y ago
  Do you think it is the same asking a small subset of users than having info on all the users? I work as a Product Manager, and trust me, it is not the same.
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    Of course it's not the same. But having detailed information from all users is also not required in order to produce a quality product.
hotnfresh 3y ago
1) Ask 2) Conduct user studies How are companies that aren't software vendors and aren't able to spy on their customers able to do it? Did software companies not have good ways to do this before spying on their users?
- kevingadd 3y ago
  1 and 2 are problematic because it's very hard to get representative data from either one. The people who have time for user studies or post on your forums are not representative users. Only listening to data from 1 & 2 results in the sort of angry posts you frequently see on HN complaining that devs aren't listening to "real users" or have the wrong priorities. You end up needing data from additional sources, telemetry being one of them.
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    > Only listening to data from 1 & 2 results in the sort of angry posts you frequently see on HN If that's the sort of responses your studies produce, then your studies are seriously flawed.
  - hotnfresh 3y ago
    You do not need it. This is a really weird attitude. Until like the late '00s "telemetry" was, full stop, spyware (still is, for those of us who didn't shift our attitudes with the prevailing winds). I wouldn't say that responsiveness to user needs and desires has improved since then, in software design.
    - kwanbix 3y ago
      But what is the problem? That I can know that you press the print button? That you chose the Edit menu? I really don't see the problem. Please, explain, I really want to understand.
      - hotnfresh 3y ago
        You don't see the problem of someone recording the actions you take using your own computer in your own home or office? It's like having a stranger sitting over your shoulder watching you. It's creepy and weird, and it's gross that people try to do it at all.
rurp 3y ago
Taking stock of the connected devices and software that I am familiar with, I'd say there is a strong correlation between detailed user tracking and worse UX. It seems weird at first glance but I think there are some solid explanations for why that might be. Data analysis is difficult to perform and understand well. It is easy to draw mistaken conclusions or to twist results to show the conclusion a person wants, and using detailed numbers can lead to a false sense of confidence in the results. Companies are first and foremost optimizing for their benefit, not the user. Detailed tracking can uncover interesting ways for a company to make more money at the expense of the user.
tester756 3y ago
That's good question I feel like people who are fully against telemetry never had to deal with such issues in big apps
eviks 3y ago
By reading up on those decades-old bugs in the issue tracker, by making said issue tracker easier to vote on and pleasant to look at, by making other easy feedback submission mechanisms that don't become black holes themselves, by many other options mentioned elsewhere
StableAlkyne 3y ago
You don't need spyware just to improve a product. Dev teams were able to produce great software before we were constantly online. If a team is so unfamiliar with their product and customer base that it cannot take action without telemetry, maybe they're not the right team to make that product. Statistics are not a substitute for domain knowledge.
permo-w 3y ago
companies managed just fine before the internet

mftrhu 3y ago

They could ask their users.

mo_42 3y ago
Or observe people how they interact with the browser. If they would observe my parents, they could learn a lot that cannot be captured by telemetry.
kwanbix 3y ago
So how many users do you have to ask for it to be statistically relevant for a user base of 360 million users?
- eviks 3y ago
  Hundreds? Increasing user base doesn't matter much for sample size

JohnFen 3y ago

Others have answered this, but I just wanted to point out the software devs have been managing to understand how their products are used for improvement purposes from long before telemetry was a realistic possibility. Telemetry doesn't make it possible, it makes it less expensive.

kwanbix 3y ago
Do you think it is the same asking a small subset of users than having info on all the users? I work as a Product Manager, and trust me, it is not the same.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  Of course it's not the same. But having detailed information from all users is also not required in order to produce a quality product.

hotnfresh 3y ago

1) Ask 2) Conduct user studies How are companies that aren't software vendors and aren't able to spy on their customers able to do it? Did software companies not have good ways to do this before spying on their users?

kevingadd 3y ago
1 and 2 are problematic because it's very hard to get representative data from either one. The people who have time for user studies or post on your forums are not representative users. Only listening to data from 1 & 2 results in the sort of angry posts you frequently see on HN complaining that devs aren't listening to "real users" or have the wrong priorities. You end up needing data from additional sources, telemetry being one of them.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  > Only listening to data from 1 & 2 results in the sort of angry posts you frequently see on HN If that's the sort of responses your studies produce, then your studies are seriously flawed.
- hotnfresh 3y ago
  You do not need it. This is a really weird attitude. Until like the late '00s "telemetry" was, full stop, spyware (still is, for those of us who didn't shift our attitudes with the prevailing winds). I wouldn't say that responsiveness to user needs and desires has improved since then, in software design.
  - kwanbix 3y ago
    But what is the problem? That I can know that you press the print button? That you chose the Edit menu? I really don't see the problem. Please, explain, I really want to understand.
    - hotnfresh 3y ago
      You don't see the problem of someone recording the actions you take using your own computer in your own home or office? It's like having a stranger sitting over your shoulder watching you. It's creepy and weird, and it's gross that people try to do it at all.

rurp 3y ago

Taking stock of the connected devices and software that I am familiar with, I'd say there is a strong correlation between detailed user tracking and worse UX. It seems weird at first glance but I think there are some solid explanations for why that might be. Data analysis is difficult to perform and understand well. It is easy to draw mistaken conclusions or to twist results to show the conclusion a person wants, and using detailed numbers can lead to a false sense of confidence in the results. Companies are first and foremost optimizing for their benefit, not the user. Detailed tracking can uncover interesting ways for a company to make more money at the expense of the user.

tester756 3y ago

That's good question I feel like people who are fully against telemetry never had to deal with such issues in big apps

eviks 3y ago

By reading up on those decades-old bugs in the issue tracker, by making said issue tracker easier to vote on and pleasant to look at, by making other easy feedback submission mechanisms that don't become black holes themselves, by many other options mentioned elsewhere

StableAlkyne 3y ago

You don't need spyware just to improve a product. Dev teams were able to produce great software before we were constantly online. If a team is so unfamiliar with their product and customer base that it cannot take action without telemetry, maybe they're not the right team to make that product. Statistics are not a substitute for domain knowledge.

permo-w 3y ago

companies managed just fine before the internet