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All education is intertwined with indoctrination. At least religious indoctrination is a known quantity, unlike other less self-aware forms.

gameman144 3y ago
This is a pretty strong take. I'd be curious whether you believe that education is inherently indoctrination, or whether all current education approaches are just also indoctrinating? I disagree on both counts, but it seems like the claims there are pretty different in how extreme they are.
Guvante 3y ago
Are you saying "I believe it is true so it is fine to indoctrinate that way"? I can't find any definition of known quantity otherwise given how extremely wide the variations on religious teaching is only focusing on science let alone other topics like history. Let alone that there isn't only one religion in the world. If your perspective is "if the parent says it is correct it is correct" you cannot say that is different in any meaningful way.
potatopatch 3y ago
That's strange, I knew a lot about how my society rejected the views of each of my teachers as a child and I feel neither motivation to follow in their footsteps nor try to undermine their particular political constellations. If those people were all related to me and I couldn't get away from them I might feel a bit different.
mrguyorama 3y ago
In religion, they say "God made the heaven and the earth" How do you know that? "He wrote it in this book" In education: "Gravity is about 9.8m/s/s" How do you know that? "Well do this pendulum experiment with me and see for yourself."
- gwd 3y ago
  It's interesting that you changed the question, because if you had education answer the same question, it would be a lot less compelling: > In education: "The earth accumulated matter together after a previous supernova." > How do you know that? "It's written in this book." In the vast majority of cases, that is literally how the teacher knows it: they don't actually know the evidence or the chain of reasoning that science took to get to where the current theory is, nor how one could actually go about gathering the evidence oneself to prove it true or false.
  - Jensson 3y ago
    That is a good question since it is well explained in middle school, maybe you forgot it but here goes what they told me in middle school: We were taught basic nuclear physics in middle school and were shown the valley of stability. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valley_of_stability https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valley_of_stability Atoms larger than iron came from atoms crashing together like in an atom bomb ie super novas and similar, while atoms smaller than iron can come from regular decaying processes. Doesn't take much to explain that. Does it explain exactly how the nuclear energy was calculated? No, but we can see how people figured out that parts of earth came from a super nova. This is very different from just "it was written in a book".
    - c0pium 3y ago
      It’s the same thing. You have to ask why a few more times, but you get to the same place.
      - Jensson 3y ago
        No it isn't the same thing. It clearly explains why these scientists believe parts of earth came from a supernova, and the steps you yourself would have to take to see the same things as them. If you say that is the same thing as religion, then I ask you what steps do I have to take to meet God? I know how to replicate the physics steps, but nobody tells me how to replicate anything that religious people believe in. That makes them inherently different and not at all similar.
- robertlagrant 3y ago
  In education also: "Go to university and do anything you like and it'll all work out. Don't worry about the debt." Anything can be characterised well or badly.

gameman144 3y ago

This is a pretty strong take. I'd be curious whether you believe that education is inherently indoctrination, or whether all current education approaches are just also indoctrinating? I disagree on both counts, but it seems like the claims there are pretty different in how extreme they are.

Guvante 3y ago

Are you saying "I believe it is true so it is fine to indoctrinate that way"? I can't find any definition of known quantity otherwise given how extremely wide the variations on religious teaching is only focusing on science let alone other topics like history. Let alone that there isn't only one religion in the world. If your perspective is "if the parent says it is correct it is correct" you cannot say that is different in any meaningful way.

potatopatch 3y ago

That's strange, I knew a lot about how my society rejected the views of each of my teachers as a child and I feel neither motivation to follow in their footsteps nor try to undermine their particular political constellations. If those people were all related to me and I couldn't get away from them I might feel a bit different.

mrguyorama 3y ago

In religion, they say "God made the heaven and the earth" How do you know that? "He wrote it in this book" In education: "Gravity is about 9.8m/s/s" How do you know that? "Well do this pendulum experiment with me and see for yourself."

gwd 3y ago
It's interesting that you changed the question, because if you had education answer the same question, it would be a lot less compelling: > In education: "The earth accumulated matter together after a previous supernova." > How do you know that? "It's written in this book." In the vast majority of cases, that is literally how the teacher knows it: they don't actually know the evidence or the chain of reasoning that science took to get to where the current theory is, nor how one could actually go about gathering the evidence oneself to prove it true or false.
- Jensson 3y ago
  That is a good question since it is well explained in middle school, maybe you forgot it but here goes what they told me in middle school: We were taught basic nuclear physics in middle school and were shown the valley of stability. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valley_of_stability https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valley_of_stability Atoms larger than iron came from atoms crashing together like in an atom bomb ie super novas and similar, while atoms smaller than iron can come from regular decaying processes. Doesn't take much to explain that. Does it explain exactly how the nuclear energy was calculated? No, but we can see how people figured out that parts of earth came from a super nova. This is very different from just "it was written in a book".
  - c0pium 3y ago
    It’s the same thing. You have to ask why a few more times, but you get to the same place.
    - Jensson 3y ago
      No it isn't the same thing. It clearly explains why these scientists believe parts of earth came from a supernova, and the steps you yourself would have to take to see the same things as them. If you say that is the same thing as religion, then I ask you what steps do I have to take to meet God? I know how to replicate the physics steps, but nobody tells me how to replicate anything that religious people believe in. That makes them inherently different and not at all similar.
robertlagrant 3y ago
In education also: "Go to university and do anything you like and it'll all work out. Don't worry about the debt." Anything can be characterised well or badly.