5 ms·

> religious indoctrination indoctrination is a given. Do you prefer your secular type, the religious type or the government type?

bigstrat2003 3y ago
I prefer the Reaper type, myself.
- red-iron-pine 3y ago
  you exist because we allow it, and will end because we demand it
  - c0pium 3y ago
    For those who don’t know, this is a quote from Mass Effect. If you are reading this and didn’t know that, you are in for a treat.
efd6821b 3y ago
All education is intertwined with indoctrination. At least religious indoctrination is a known quantity, unlike other less self-aware forms.
- gameman144 3y ago
  This is a pretty strong take. I'd be curious whether you believe that education is inherently indoctrination, or whether all current education approaches are just also indoctrinating? I disagree on both counts, but it seems like the claims there are pretty different in how extreme they are.
- Guvante 3y ago
  Are you saying "I believe it is true so it is fine to indoctrinate that way"? I can't find any definition of known quantity otherwise given how extremely wide the variations on religious teaching is only focusing on science let alone other topics like history. Let alone that there isn't only one religion in the world. If your perspective is "if the parent says it is correct it is correct" you cannot say that is different in any meaningful way.
- potatopatch 3y ago
  That's strange, I knew a lot about how my society rejected the views of each of my teachers as a child and I feel neither motivation to follow in their footsteps nor try to undermine their particular political constellations. If those people were all related to me and I couldn't get away from them I might feel a bit different.
- mrguyorama 3y ago
  In religion, they say "God made the heaven and the earth" How do you know that? "He wrote it in this book" In education: "Gravity is about 9.8m/s/s" How do you know that? "Well do this pendulum experiment with me and see for yourself."
  - gwd 3y ago
    It's interesting that you changed the question, because if you had education answer the same question, it would be a lot less compelling: > In education: "The earth accumulated matter together after a previous supernova." > How do you know that? "It's written in this book." In the vast majority of cases, that is literally how the teacher knows it: they don't actually know the evidence or the chain of reasoning that science took to get to where the current theory is, nor how one could actually go about gathering the evidence oneself to prove it true or false.
    - Jensson 3y ago
      That is a good question since it is well explained in middle school, maybe you forgot it but here goes what they told me in middle school: We were taught basic nuclear physics in middle school and were shown the valley of stability. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valley_of_stability https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valley_of_stability Atoms larger than iron came from atoms crashing together like in an atom bomb ie super novas and similar, while atoms smaller than iron can come from regular decaying processes. Doesn't take much to explain that. Does it explain exactly how the nuclear energy was calculated? No, but we can see how people figured out that parts of earth came from a super nova. This is very different from just "it was written in a book".
      - c0pium 3y ago
        It’s the same thing. You have to ask why a few more times, but you get to the same place.
        Jensson 3y ago
jjav 3y ago
> indoctrination is a given. Indoctrination is not a given and should never be acceptable in education. What is indoctrination? Here's one dictionary definition: indoctrination: the process of repeating an idea or belief to someone until they accept it without criticism or question Note "accept it without criticism or question". This is the polar opposite of what education should be, which is to encourage investigation, researching topics with a scientific method instead of believing without question.
- ARandomerDude 3y ago
  > what education should be…with a scientific method Does the scientific method tell you this? It couldn’t have, because this is a philosophical belief not a scientific one. Very likely, you were indoctrinated to believe this. Not all “doctrine” (teaching) is wrong and not all indoctrination is wrong. But everyone undergoes some form of indoctrination.
  - soperj 3y ago
    Would you believe the paper that said that teaching by encouraging research with the scientific method is better? Would be very ironic if it said that it wasn't.
    - bluGill 3y ago
      Encouraging researching the scientific method is itself indoctrination, though it is done differently from other indoctrination. This isn't bad. I don't think it is worth you while to research cannibalism, or a number of other things that people have done/believed in over time. Even if you come to the "right conclusion" there is just too much too research to look into everything people have come up with. My life is worse because I - a non-doctor - had to research all the anti-vaccination claims to see if they really were baseless (they were, but I know from history experts are not always right and once in a while a conspiracy really does occur)
      - c0pium 3y ago
Jensson 3y ago
> Do you prefer your secular type What is secular indoctrination? Kids who grow up without a religion doesn't get told anything, all you have to do is to not indoctrinate the kid into a religion. There is still school etc, but removing religious indoctrination doesn't add anything else, its just less indoctrination overall.
- lolinder 3y ago
  > Kids who grow up without a religion doesn't get told anything I work in edtech with a bunch of former teachers, and this is absolutely untrue. Many elementary and middle school teachers see part of their role (regardless of the subject they're officially teaching) as being to teach morals to their students, and the morality that they choose to teach is every bit as subjective as the morality that comes out of a religion. And if it's not their teachers teaching them morals, then it's their parents. You can't raise a child without intentionally or unintentionally instilling in them your own value system. The biggest factor in whether someone feels that something is "indoctrination" isn't whether it originates from a religion but whether they agree with the principles being taught.
  - Jensson 3y ago
    You missed the last line I wrote, I never said there weren't other forms of indoctrination: > There is still school etc, but removing religious indoctrination doesn't add anything else, its just less indoctrination overall. I should probably have clarified it in the first bit that I meant that the kids weren't told anything about religion, not that the kids aren't told anything at all. My point is that there is no indoctrination required to raise a kid without religion, it is the natural state. I and most people I grew up with were raised that way, religion was stories we read about in school, not some magical thing.
    - lolinder 3y ago
      I didn't miss it, I disagree with the idea that it's less indoctrination overall: it's just more homogenous indoctrination. A kid who gets taught religion at home and secular values at school is less indoctrinated than a kid who gets secular values in both places.

bigstrat2003 3y ago

I prefer the Reaper type, myself.

red-iron-pine 3y ago
you exist because we allow it, and will end because we demand it
- c0pium 3y ago
  For those who don’t know, this is a quote from Mass Effect. If you are reading this and didn’t know that, you are in for a treat.

efd6821b 3y ago

All education is intertwined with indoctrination. At least religious indoctrination is a known quantity, unlike other less self-aware forms.

gameman144 3y ago
This is a pretty strong take. I'd be curious whether you believe that education is inherently indoctrination, or whether all current education approaches are just also indoctrinating? I disagree on both counts, but it seems like the claims there are pretty different in how extreme they are.
Guvante 3y ago
Are you saying "I believe it is true so it is fine to indoctrinate that way"? I can't find any definition of known quantity otherwise given how extremely wide the variations on religious teaching is only focusing on science let alone other topics like history. Let alone that there isn't only one religion in the world. If your perspective is "if the parent says it is correct it is correct" you cannot say that is different in any meaningful way.
potatopatch 3y ago
That's strange, I knew a lot about how my society rejected the views of each of my teachers as a child and I feel neither motivation to follow in their footsteps nor try to undermine their particular political constellations. If those people were all related to me and I couldn't get away from them I might feel a bit different.
mrguyorama 3y ago
In religion, they say "God made the heaven and the earth" How do you know that? "He wrote it in this book" In education: "Gravity is about 9.8m/s/s" How do you know that? "Well do this pendulum experiment with me and see for yourself."
- gwd 3y ago
  It's interesting that you changed the question, because if you had education answer the same question, it would be a lot less compelling: > In education: "The earth accumulated matter together after a previous supernova." > How do you know that? "It's written in this book." In the vast majority of cases, that is literally how the teacher knows it: they don't actually know the evidence or the chain of reasoning that science took to get to where the current theory is, nor how one could actually go about gathering the evidence oneself to prove it true or false.
  - Jensson 3y ago
    That is a good question since it is well explained in middle school, maybe you forgot it but here goes what they told me in middle school: We were taught basic nuclear physics in middle school and were shown the valley of stability. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valley_of_stability https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valley_of_stability Atoms larger than iron came from atoms crashing together like in an atom bomb ie super novas and similar, while atoms smaller than iron can come from regular decaying processes. Doesn't take much to explain that. Does it explain exactly how the nuclear energy was calculated? No, but we can see how people figured out that parts of earth came from a super nova. This is very different from just "it was written in a book".
    - c0pium 3y ago
      It’s the same thing. You have to ask why a few more times, but you get to the same place.
      - Jensson 3y ago

jjav 3y ago

> indoctrination is a given. Indoctrination is not a given and should never be acceptable in education. What is indoctrination? Here's one dictionary definition: indoctrination: the process of repeating an idea or belief to someone until they accept it without criticism or question Note "accept it without criticism or question". This is the polar opposite of what education should be, which is to encourage investigation, researching topics with a scientific method instead of believing without question.

ARandomerDude 3y ago
> what education should be…with a scientific method Does the scientific method tell you this? It couldn’t have, because this is a philosophical belief not a scientific one. Very likely, you were indoctrinated to believe this. Not all “doctrine” (teaching) is wrong and not all indoctrination is wrong. But everyone undergoes some form of indoctrination.
- soperj 3y ago
  Would you believe the paper that said that teaching by encouraging research with the scientific method is better? Would be very ironic if it said that it wasn't.
  - bluGill 3y ago
    Encouraging researching the scientific method is itself indoctrination, though it is done differently from other indoctrination. This isn't bad. I don't think it is worth you while to research cannibalism, or a number of other things that people have done/believed in over time. Even if you come to the "right conclusion" there is just too much too research to look into everything people have come up with. My life is worse because I - a non-doctor - had to research all the anti-vaccination claims to see if they really were baseless (they were, but I know from history experts are not always right and once in a while a conspiracy really does occur)
    - c0pium 3y ago

Jensson 3y ago

> Do you prefer your secular type What is secular indoctrination? Kids who grow up without a religion doesn't get told anything, all you have to do is to not indoctrinate the kid into a religion. There is still school etc, but removing religious indoctrination doesn't add anything else, its just less indoctrination overall.

lolinder 3y ago
> Kids who grow up without a religion doesn't get told anything I work in edtech with a bunch of former teachers, and this is absolutely untrue. Many elementary and middle school teachers see part of their role (regardless of the subject they're officially teaching) as being to teach morals to their students, and the morality that they choose to teach is every bit as subjective as the morality that comes out of a religion. And if it's not their teachers teaching them morals, then it's their parents. You can't raise a child without intentionally or unintentionally instilling in them your own value system. The biggest factor in whether someone feels that something is "indoctrination" isn't whether it originates from a religion but whether they agree with the principles being taught.
- Jensson 3y ago
  You missed the last line I wrote, I never said there weren't other forms of indoctrination: > There is still school etc, but removing religious indoctrination doesn't add anything else, its just less indoctrination overall. I should probably have clarified it in the first bit that I meant that the kids weren't told anything about religion, not that the kids aren't told anything at all. My point is that there is no indoctrination required to raise a kid without religion, it is the natural state. I and most people I grew up with were raised that way, religion was stories we read about in school, not some magical thing.
  - lolinder 3y ago
    I didn't miss it, I disagree with the idea that it's less indoctrination overall: it's just more homogenous indoctrination. A kid who gets taught religion at home and secular values at school is less indoctrinated than a kid who gets secular values in both places.