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> > The underlying problem is the completely unregulated nature. > I didn't need your permission to give birth to my children, why do I need your permission w

> > The underlying problem is the completely unregulated nature. > I didn't need your permission to give birth to my children, why do I need your permission when deciding how I educate them? Because your children are not your property, they are your responsibility and we as society have decided that we want to make sure that the education is to a certain standard. As a side note I find it fascinating how people who feel strongly about individual freedom, believe they should have ultimate authority (sometimes it feels more like ownership) over their children. Why do you believe that the freedoms do not apply to children?

akira2501 3y ago
> Because your children are not your property, they are your responsibility I am their _guardian_. > and we as society have decided that we want to make sure that the education is to a certain standard. And what is that standard? Passing standardized tests? How do you account for the poor performance of American schools in general? How do you account for the differential performance across the country, let alone, wild performance differences across a single city? If a child goes to school but fails to become educated, can the sue the school district? Does the school owe them continued education until they meet the standard? > believe they should have ultimate authority (sometimes it feels more like ownership) over their children. If something happens to my children and I'm even just negligent then I will pay the ultimate price. You cannot ensconce in me this responsibility and then deny my authority to exercise control over them to maintain it. > Why do you believe that the freedoms do not apply to children? Why do you think children can't sign contracts or buy alcohol? They have _limited_ freedom, under my _guardianship_. This is more important than the States imputed idealism with respect to "education."
- watwut 3y ago
  > How do you account for the poor performance of American schools in general Actually, American schools do not do badly in international comparisons. They are the number one, sure, but they are still pretty good.
  - XorNot 3y ago
    Also there aren't "American" schools. There are "American state" schools - 50 different versions. There's also some very unsurprising outcomes based on state policy there.
  - orangepurple 3y ago
    Baltimore City Schools received 29 federal Covid grants totaling $799M to fight learning loss. Yet, in 2023, just 9.1% of all 3rd-8th graders tested proficient in math. MEANING, taxpayers gave an additional $799M and 91% of Baltimore students are NOT math proficient. New test scores, known as MCAP (Maryland Comprehensive Assessment Program), obtained by Project Baltimore, revealed that 23 schools, including elementary, middle, and high schools, had not one student that could do math at grade level. Calverton school (https://www.niche.com/k12/calverton-elementary-middle-school https://www.niche.com/k12/calverton-elementary-middle-school...) A Calverton educator, who reached out to Fox45, claims to have received that text. “[It instructed me to] go into my grade book, make sure no students are failing, and essentially change the grade if they are failing so they will pass with a 60 percent,” said the teacher, whose identity we are concealing upon request. “I was frustrated as a teacher. We’re public servants. And when we see things like grade changing, that’s self-serving. That’s not helping the kids.” After watching Fox45’s recent investigations into allegations of grade changing at Calverton, the City Schools employee contacted Project Baltimore to say a couple things. First, according to the teacher, grade changing at Calverton is “very common.” Second, the educator told Fox45, changing grades is the easiest and fastest way to pass more students, which makes the school and its administrators look better. But, it does a huge disservice to not just the kids, but our entire community. “Teaching a whole generation of kids that they don’t have to be accountable for their actions, or that hard work isn’t valued or valuable when they are in school, is so discouraging and damaging.” Adding insult to injury, the same teacher said that he even passed kids who had been on his roster all year but didn’t bother to show up for a single day of class. But this teacher says grade changing at Calverton goes much further than just taking a failing grade and making it a 60. Some students who pass, according to this educator, don’t even have grades because they’ve never showed up to class. “There were students on my roster all year that I had never met, had never seen. On paper they passed my class and passed onto the next year.” “I love my job and I love my students,” concluded the teacher. “I want to see the students at Calverton and other schools across the city, get a fresh start. And it’s going to be hard because the students are used to this now. But the students deserve better and our city deserve better.”
- FireBeyond 3y ago
  > If something happens to my children and I'm even just negligent then I will pay the ultimate price. You cannot ensconce in me this responsibility and then deny my authority to exercise control over them to maintain it. That's demonstrably false. You can do plenty of neglectful or negligent things to your children and face zero consequences.
s1artibartfast 3y ago
I think I can explain the confusution. The state dictating and setting the rules is no more free than the parents setting the rules. This basically comes down to an argument not of freedom, but if the children are property of the state or parents. When you look at it this way, it makes perfect sense that libertairian minded folks would support homeschooling. After all, the state isnt offering the freedom of choice and action to children, it is making legal requirements and demands.
- smcg 3y ago
  Children are no one's property. Their guardians have a responsibility to them, they do not own them.
  - s1artibartfast 3y ago
    Obviously not. The question remains of who gets to shape and control their identity and future. Is the purpose of their lives to serve the interests of the state, or society at large? Or should they be live their lives based on their own interests and priorities. the libertarian perspective is that if you grant the state and society the authority to control the child, it will use that authority to advance the interests of the state or society.
dahfizz 3y ago
> Why do you believe that the freedoms do not apply to children? As if public schools provide kids any sort of freedom or autonomy? What is your point here? Someone has to be in charge of a kid. Either the parent acts as the authority over their child, or the state does.
cooper_ganglia 3y ago
> Because your children are not your property, they are your responsibility I couldn’t possibly agree more! They are MY responsibility. Not yours. Not the state’s. Not society’s. I will educate them the way that I see fit. It’s not my responsibility to educate your kids, and it’s not your responsibility to educate mine, no matter how righteous and justified it may feel.
- bratbag 3y ago
  Within limits. If you are teaching your children to murder all Jews and that red traffic lights mean go, then you are clearly not capable of being responsible for another human being.
  - cooper_ganglia 3y ago
    But surely you can recognize the difference between simply teaching your child an evidence-dry religious worldview, and teaching them to actively hate and murder people or break laws that would endanger others? I agree, within reason is always necessary, and if those things were being taught then it's time for a visit from CPS, for sure. But it still feels like a potential slippery slope of "You're abusing this child by teaching them things that aren't approved by the state" in the extreme case. I know that may sound silly, but with as polarized as the country has been recently, and with authoritarianism on the rise worldwide (I saw a man get arrested in the UK yesterday because he criticized some protests on Facebook!), I don't see it being an entirely foreign idea.
sastaha 3y ago
"Because your children are not your property, they are your responsibility" I bet there's a correlation between this viewpoint and not having any children.

akira2501 3y ago

> Because your children are not your property, they are your responsibility I am their _guardian_. > and we as society have decided that we want to make sure that the education is to a certain standard. And what is that standard? Passing standardized tests? How do you account for the poor performance of American schools in general? How do you account for the differential performance across the country, let alone, wild performance differences across a single city? If a child goes to school but fails to become educated, can the sue the school district? Does the school owe them continued education until they meet the standard? > believe they should have ultimate authority (sometimes it feels more like ownership) over their children. If something happens to my children and I'm even just negligent then I will pay the ultimate price. You cannot ensconce in me this responsibility and then deny my authority to exercise control over them to maintain it. > Why do you believe that the freedoms do not apply to children? Why do you think children can't sign contracts or buy alcohol? They have _limited_ freedom, under my _guardianship_. This is more important than the States imputed idealism with respect to "education."

watwut 3y ago
> How do you account for the poor performance of American schools in general Actually, American schools do not do badly in international comparisons. They are the number one, sure, but they are still pretty good.
- XorNot 3y ago
  Also there aren't "American" schools. There are "American state" schools - 50 different versions. There's also some very unsurprising outcomes based on state policy there.
- orangepurple 3y ago
  Baltimore City Schools received 29 federal Covid grants totaling $799M to fight learning loss. Yet, in 2023, just 9.1% of all 3rd-8th graders tested proficient in math. MEANING, taxpayers gave an additional $799M and 91% of Baltimore students are NOT math proficient. New test scores, known as MCAP (Maryland Comprehensive Assessment Program), obtained by Project Baltimore, revealed that 23 schools, including elementary, middle, and high schools, had not one student that could do math at grade level. Calverton school (https://www.niche.com/k12/calverton-elementary-middle-school https://www.niche.com/k12/calverton-elementary-middle-school...) A Calverton educator, who reached out to Fox45, claims to have received that text. “[It instructed me to] go into my grade book, make sure no students are failing, and essentially change the grade if they are failing so they will pass with a 60 percent,” said the teacher, whose identity we are concealing upon request. “I was frustrated as a teacher. We’re public servants. And when we see things like grade changing, that’s self-serving. That’s not helping the kids.” After watching Fox45’s recent investigations into allegations of grade changing at Calverton, the City Schools employee contacted Project Baltimore to say a couple things. First, according to the teacher, grade changing at Calverton is “very common.” Second, the educator told Fox45, changing grades is the easiest and fastest way to pass more students, which makes the school and its administrators look better. But, it does a huge disservice to not just the kids, but our entire community. “Teaching a whole generation of kids that they don’t have to be accountable for their actions, or that hard work isn’t valued or valuable when they are in school, is so discouraging and damaging.” Adding insult to injury, the same teacher said that he even passed kids who had been on his roster all year but didn’t bother to show up for a single day of class. But this teacher says grade changing at Calverton goes much further than just taking a failing grade and making it a 60. Some students who pass, according to this educator, don’t even have grades because they’ve never showed up to class. “There were students on my roster all year that I had never met, had never seen. On paper they passed my class and passed onto the next year.” “I love my job and I love my students,” concluded the teacher. “I want to see the students at Calverton and other schools across the city, get a fresh start. And it’s going to be hard because the students are used to this now. But the students deserve better and our city deserve better.”
FireBeyond 3y ago
> If something happens to my children and I'm even just negligent then I will pay the ultimate price. You cannot ensconce in me this responsibility and then deny my authority to exercise control over them to maintain it. That's demonstrably false. You can do plenty of neglectful or negligent things to your children and face zero consequences.

s1artibartfast 3y ago

I think I can explain the confusution. The state dictating and setting the rules is no more free than the parents setting the rules. This basically comes down to an argument not of freedom, but if the children are property of the state or parents. When you look at it this way, it makes perfect sense that libertairian minded folks would support homeschooling. After all, the state isnt offering the freedom of choice and action to children, it is making legal requirements and demands.

smcg 3y ago
Children are no one's property. Their guardians have a responsibility to them, they do not own them.
- s1artibartfast 3y ago
  Obviously not. The question remains of who gets to shape and control their identity and future. Is the purpose of their lives to serve the interests of the state, or society at large? Or should they be live their lives based on their own interests and priorities. the libertarian perspective is that if you grant the state and society the authority to control the child, it will use that authority to advance the interests of the state or society.

dahfizz 3y ago

> Why do you believe that the freedoms do not apply to children? As if public schools provide kids any sort of freedom or autonomy? What is your point here? Someone has to be in charge of a kid. Either the parent acts as the authority over their child, or the state does.

cooper_ganglia 3y ago

> Because your children are not your property, they are your responsibility I couldn’t possibly agree more! They are MY responsibility. Not yours. Not the state’s. Not society’s. I will educate them the way that I see fit. It’s not my responsibility to educate your kids, and it’s not your responsibility to educate mine, no matter how righteous and justified it may feel.

bratbag 3y ago
Within limits. If you are teaching your children to murder all Jews and that red traffic lights mean go, then you are clearly not capable of being responsible for another human being.
- cooper_ganglia 3y ago
  But surely you can recognize the difference between simply teaching your child an evidence-dry religious worldview, and teaching them to actively hate and murder people or break laws that would endanger others? I agree, within reason is always necessary, and if those things were being taught then it's time for a visit from CPS, for sure. But it still feels like a potential slippery slope of "You're abusing this child by teaching them things that aren't approved by the state" in the extreme case. I know that may sound silly, but with as polarized as the country has been recently, and with authoritarianism on the rise worldwide (I saw a man get arrested in the UK yesterday because he criticized some protests on Facebook!), I don't see it being an entirely foreign idea.

sastaha 3y ago

"Because your children are not your property, they are your responsibility" I bet there's a correlation between this viewpoint and not having any children.