4 ms·

> The underlying problem is the completely unregulated nature. I didn't need your permission to give birth to my children, why do I need your permission when

> The underlying problem is the completely unregulated nature. I didn't need your permission to give birth to my children, why do I need your permission when deciding how I educate them? > Only dad is allowed to talk to anyone and when he does it's extraordinarily weird. If you feel these children are legitimately being abused in some way, I'm guessing there are plenty of state resources to address that challenge. Do you actually feel there's abuse happening? Or, is it that you just find them unusual?

throwaway2203 3y ago
This is my thing, like what right does a public school have to regulate when I can and won't send my kids to school? If I decide to take a trip abroad for a month, that's on me... why do i have to worry about truancy court and CPS breathing down my neck?
- 303uru 3y ago
  Your kid has a right to education, you don't get to deny them that right. It's funny how rugged individualism seems to end with self and extend to happily stomping on others.
  - throwaway2203 3y ago
    Sure, and it's my responsibility to provide it without the state nanny'ing over me. The homeschoolers get a free pass to do literally whatever... don't you see a dichotomy with what you're preaching?
- RoyalHenOil 3y ago
  Why should you have to feed your kid when they're hungry? Why should you have to make a space on your home for them to sleep and be warm? Why should you have to get them medical care when they are sick? Why can't you just do anything you want, regardless of the effect it has on your dependents?
  - throwaway2203 3y ago
    First of all those are primal needs and independent of schooling. Schooling is a far more personal choice. Second, I do all those things because it's my responsibility, not because the state will come after me if I don't.
vharuck 3y ago
>I didn't need your permission to give birth to my children, why do I need your permission when deciding how I educate them? One legal theory that may be relevant was brought up long ago for a case on banned books in school: you have the right to raise your kid according to your beliefs, but many states guarantee children the right to education. So the state could regulate homeschooling to ensure all children have access to an actual education. >If you feel these children are legitimately being abused in some way, I'm guessing there are plenty of state resources to address that challenge. A lot of those resources rely on processes that come after reports from teachers and caregivers. If nobody outside the home ever sees or talks to the kids, there's not much the state can do to even start an investigation. Children who go to daycare or public school are seen by professionals trained to spot abuse. We allow anyone to have children, because otherwise we're on a very slippery and short slope towards eugenics. But those children are entitled to the same rights and protections as their parents. It's hard to strike a good balance between a family's freedom and a child's freedom. Edited out some unnecessary detours in my ramblings
- jononomo 3y ago
  People just assume that other people must be abusing their kids. Sheesh. The commenter is describing a two-parent household with 8 children and a massive backyard -- the odds are that they're extremely happy and our commenter is just a grouch.
- akira2501 3y ago
  > but many states guarantee children the right to education They guarantee the right to /access/ education. This is not at all the same as guaranteeing that all children "must be educated at a state approved school." > If nobody outside the home ever sees or talks to the kids, there's not much the state can do to even start an investigation. I read an incredible number of police reports. There's a lot of abuse that gets detected outside of daycare and schools. Unless the children are literally locked into a basement, I doubt that the parents can continually exercise enough total control to keep whatever other abuse their committing hidden. To the extent that if it is happening, it's an exceptionally rare case, and I doubt that simply forcing all parents to send their children to a third party for education is going to have any impact on these particularly pernicious cases. I understand the instinct, but I think the solution is wrong, and it's an inappropriate case to use to defend schooling in general.
cycomanic 3y ago
> > The underlying problem is the completely unregulated nature. > I didn't need your permission to give birth to my children, why do I need your permission when deciding how I educate them? Because your children are not your property, they are your responsibility and we as society have decided that we want to make sure that the education is to a certain standard. As a side note I find it fascinating how people who feel strongly about individual freedom, believe they should have ultimate authority (sometimes it feels more like ownership) over their children. Why do you believe that the freedoms do not apply to children?
- akira2501 3y ago
  > Because your children are not your property, they are your responsibility I am their _guardian_. > and we as society have decided that we want to make sure that the education is to a certain standard. And what is that standard? Passing standardized tests? How do you account for the poor performance of American schools in general? How do you account for the differential performance across the country, let alone, wild performance differences across a single city? If a child goes to school but fails to become educated, can the sue the school district? Does the school owe them continued education until they meet the standard? > believe they should have ultimate authority (sometimes it feels more like ownership) over their children. If something happens to my children and I'm even just negligent then I will pay the ultimate price. You cannot ensconce in me this responsibility and then deny my authority to exercise control over them to maintain it. > Why do you believe that the freedoms do not apply to children? Why do you think children can't sign contracts or buy alcohol? They have _limited_ freedom, under my _guardianship_. This is more important than the States imputed idealism with respect to "education."
  - watwut 3y ago
    > How do you account for the poor performance of American schools in general Actually, American schools do not do badly in international comparisons. They are the number one, sure, but they are still pretty good.
    - 3y ago
303uru 3y ago
>why do I need your permission when deciding how I educate them Your kid has a right to education, you don't get to deny them that right. It's funny how these arguments are all "don't tread on my right to tread on my kid."
RavingGoat 3y ago
I would contend that sheltering your children from the outside world and not letting them have friends is child abuse.
selfmodruntime 3y ago
> I didn't need your permission to give birth to my children, why do I need your permission when deciding how I educate them? Because quite frankly, they didn‘t have a say in the matter and rely upon you entirely to provide an adequate education

throwaway2203 3y ago

This is my thing, like what right does a public school have to regulate when I can and won't send my kids to school? If I decide to take a trip abroad for a month, that's on me... why do i have to worry about truancy court and CPS breathing down my neck?

303uru 3y ago
Your kid has a right to education, you don't get to deny them that right. It's funny how rugged individualism seems to end with self and extend to happily stomping on others.
- throwaway2203 3y ago
  Sure, and it's my responsibility to provide it without the state nanny'ing over me. The homeschoolers get a free pass to do literally whatever... don't you see a dichotomy with what you're preaching?
RoyalHenOil 3y ago
Why should you have to feed your kid when they're hungry? Why should you have to make a space on your home for them to sleep and be warm? Why should you have to get them medical care when they are sick? Why can't you just do anything you want, regardless of the effect it has on your dependents?
- throwaway2203 3y ago
  First of all those are primal needs and independent of schooling. Schooling is a far more personal choice. Second, I do all those things because it's my responsibility, not because the state will come after me if I don't.

vharuck 3y ago

>I didn't need your permission to give birth to my children, why do I need your permission when deciding how I educate them? One legal theory that may be relevant was brought up long ago for a case on banned books in school: you have the right to raise your kid according to your beliefs, but many states guarantee children the right to education. So the state could regulate homeschooling to ensure all children have access to an actual education. >If you feel these children are legitimately being abused in some way, I'm guessing there are plenty of state resources to address that challenge. A lot of those resources rely on processes that come after reports from teachers and caregivers. If nobody outside the home ever sees or talks to the kids, there's not much the state can do to even start an investigation. Children who go to daycare or public school are seen by professionals trained to spot abuse. We allow anyone to have children, because otherwise we're on a very slippery and short slope towards eugenics. But those children are entitled to the same rights and protections as their parents. It's hard to strike a good balance between a family's freedom and a child's freedom. Edited out some unnecessary detours in my ramblings

jononomo 3y ago
People just assume that other people must be abusing their kids. Sheesh. The commenter is describing a two-parent household with 8 children and a massive backyard -- the odds are that they're extremely happy and our commenter is just a grouch.
akira2501 3y ago
> but many states guarantee children the right to education They guarantee the right to /access/ education. This is not at all the same as guaranteeing that all children "must be educated at a state approved school." > If nobody outside the home ever sees or talks to the kids, there's not much the state can do to even start an investigation. I read an incredible number of police reports. There's a lot of abuse that gets detected outside of daycare and schools. Unless the children are literally locked into a basement, I doubt that the parents can continually exercise enough total control to keep whatever other abuse their committing hidden. To the extent that if it is happening, it's an exceptionally rare case, and I doubt that simply forcing all parents to send their children to a third party for education is going to have any impact on these particularly pernicious cases. I understand the instinct, but I think the solution is wrong, and it's an inappropriate case to use to defend schooling in general.

cycomanic 3y ago

> > The underlying problem is the completely unregulated nature. > I didn't need your permission to give birth to my children, why do I need your permission when deciding how I educate them? Because your children are not your property, they are your responsibility and we as society have decided that we want to make sure that the education is to a certain standard. As a side note I find it fascinating how people who feel strongly about individual freedom, believe they should have ultimate authority (sometimes it feels more like ownership) over their children. Why do you believe that the freedoms do not apply to children?

akira2501 3y ago
> Because your children are not your property, they are your responsibility I am their _guardian_. > and we as society have decided that we want to make sure that the education is to a certain standard. And what is that standard? Passing standardized tests? How do you account for the poor performance of American schools in general? How do you account for the differential performance across the country, let alone, wild performance differences across a single city? If a child goes to school but fails to become educated, can the sue the school district? Does the school owe them continued education until they meet the standard? > believe they should have ultimate authority (sometimes it feels more like ownership) over their children. If something happens to my children and I'm even just negligent then I will pay the ultimate price. You cannot ensconce in me this responsibility and then deny my authority to exercise control over them to maintain it. > Why do you believe that the freedoms do not apply to children? Why do you think children can't sign contracts or buy alcohol? They have _limited_ freedom, under my _guardianship_. This is more important than the States imputed idealism with respect to "education."
- watwut 3y ago
  > How do you account for the poor performance of American schools in general Actually, American schools do not do badly in international comparisons. They are the number one, sure, but they are still pretty good.
  - 3y ago

303uru 3y ago

>why do I need your permission when deciding how I educate them Your kid has a right to education, you don't get to deny them that right. It's funny how these arguments are all "don't tread on my right to tread on my kid."

RavingGoat 3y ago

I would contend that sheltering your children from the outside world and not letting them have friends is child abuse.

selfmodruntime 3y ago

> I didn't need your permission to give birth to my children, why do I need your permission when deciding how I educate them? Because quite frankly, they didn‘t have a say in the matter and rely upon you entirely to provide an adequate education