4 ms·

Yeah, sorry, but until there is good data on this that does a good job of differentiating along types, roles, and contexts, this just sounds like an opinion wor

Yeah, sorry, but until there is good data on this that does a good job of differentiating along types, roles, and contexts, this just sounds like an opinion worth as much as the next one.

krashidov 3y ago
This is akin to saying smoking is harmless in the 1940s
- bluepizza 3y ago
  How is it akin? What are the similarities?
  - krashidov 3y ago
    The point I'm making is that lack of data to the downsides of remote does not exonerate remote working from being less productive than in person. Just like lack of data for the harmful effects of smoking in the 1940s should not have allowed people to blindly say "There's no proof it's bad for me, therefore it's not bad for me."
    - ryanklee 3y ago
      No one says it exonerates it, but why do you think you or anyone can make an informed claim that remote workers are less productive in any or all cases?
      - krashidov 3y ago
        I think the crux of the issue is that for all of human history, being in the same room as the person you're trying to accomplish a difficult endeavor with has always worked. We landed on the moon just fine with people going into an office. Who knows? We could have landed on the moon even earlier with remote work (assuming the tech was there of course) but the overwhelming evidence is that being in the same room has worked good enough in the past. (replace moon with James Web Telescope for a more time appropriate analogy). I don't have hard data to support that one is better than the other. I can only draw on my past experiences, history, and first principles. Of course, remote work can work and has worked. Just look at open source. But if I were to start a company that had to do really difficult hardware engineering, I would probably choose not to be remote. If I were to start a company that had to do really difficult software engineering, I would think about it. Why do I place such a high importance on quick communication for a hardware startup but discount that importance for a software startup? Anyways, like many things in life there likely is not a true better option. It depends on many things. I will add that one argument I absolutely hate is when people complain about commutes. That is a separate problem that American cities have been reaping and one that we are actively sowing
        bluepizza 3y ago
        Commutes are bad in every major city in Europe as well.
    - bluepizza 3y ago
      Are you equating the lack of data around home working, something notoriously difficult to quantify, as developer productivity is very hard (or impossible) to measure, to cancer?
- ryanklee 3y ago
  Again, unless you have data, seems like hot air. Edit: Just to address the implication head on... The claim you are making is that it's so obvious everyone but shills will admit it. But this is itself not true. It's a divisive topic among every demographic who harbors an opinion on the matter. The jury is definitely still out and the story in the end is unlikely to be monolithic, but different along several dimensions.
  - salawat 3y ago
    ...On smoking? The jury is literally not still out in any way shape or form. Smoking causes cancer. that is harmful. period. The only controversy that is left is whether political power should be exercised to protect people from themselves. Which in the U.S. at least tends not to be a tenable direction. Unless you're specifically commenting on the "unless you have data" part. Which ironically, tobacco and other chemical companies usually have reams of, but keep hidden, and fight the discovery and unsealing of tooth and nail. Furthermore, no one wants to fund the side of the science that slits the goose that lays the golden egg's throat. So more correctly stated is "Everything is hot air. Data doesn't matter as long as it never sees the light of day. When it does, have more money than the other guy to control the narrative."
    - ryanklee 3y ago
      What?! I'm not talking about smoking. GP made an analogy to smoking. I'm talking about remote work.

Yeah, sorry, but until there is good data on this that does a good job of differentiating along types, roles, and contexts, this just sounds like an opinion worth as much as the next one.

krashidov 3y ago

This is akin to saying smoking is harmless in the 1940s

bluepizza 3y ago
How is it akin? What are the similarities?
- krashidov 3y ago
  The point I'm making is that lack of data to the downsides of remote does not exonerate remote working from being less productive than in person. Just like lack of data for the harmful effects of smoking in the 1940s should not have allowed people to blindly say "There's no proof it's bad for me, therefore it's not bad for me."
  - ryanklee 3y ago
    No one says it exonerates it, but why do you think you or anyone can make an informed claim that remote workers are less productive in any or all cases?
    - krashidov 3y ago
      I think the crux of the issue is that for all of human history, being in the same room as the person you're trying to accomplish a difficult endeavor with has always worked. We landed on the moon just fine with people going into an office. Who knows? We could have landed on the moon even earlier with remote work (assuming the tech was there of course) but the overwhelming evidence is that being in the same room has worked good enough in the past. (replace moon with James Web Telescope for a more time appropriate analogy). I don't have hard data to support that one is better than the other. I can only draw on my past experiences, history, and first principles. Of course, remote work can work and has worked. Just look at open source. But if I were to start a company that had to do really difficult hardware engineering, I would probably choose not to be remote. If I were to start a company that had to do really difficult software engineering, I would think about it. Why do I place such a high importance on quick communication for a hardware startup but discount that importance for a software startup? Anyways, like many things in life there likely is not a true better option. It depends on many things. I will add that one argument I absolutely hate is when people complain about commutes. That is a separate problem that American cities have been reaping and one that we are actively sowing
      - bluepizza 3y ago
        Commutes are bad in every major city in Europe as well.
  - bluepizza 3y ago
    Are you equating the lack of data around home working, something notoriously difficult to quantify, as developer productivity is very hard (or impossible) to measure, to cancer?
ryanklee 3y ago
Again, unless you have data, seems like hot air. Edit: Just to address the implication head on... The claim you are making is that it's so obvious everyone but shills will admit it. But this is itself not true. It's a divisive topic among every demographic who harbors an opinion on the matter. The jury is definitely still out and the story in the end is unlikely to be monolithic, but different along several dimensions.
- salawat 3y ago
  ...On smoking? The jury is literally not still out in any way shape or form. Smoking causes cancer. that is harmful. period. The only controversy that is left is whether political power should be exercised to protect people from themselves. Which in the U.S. at least tends not to be a tenable direction. Unless you're specifically commenting on the "unless you have data" part. Which ironically, tobacco and other chemical companies usually have reams of, but keep hidden, and fight the discovery and unsealing of tooth and nail. Furthermore, no one wants to fund the side of the science that slits the goose that lays the golden egg's throat. So more correctly stated is "Everything is hot air. Data doesn't matter as long as it never sees the light of day. When it does, have more money than the other guy to control the narrative."
  - ryanklee 3y ago
    What?! I'm not talking about smoking. GP made an analogy to smoking. I'm talking about remote work.