5 ms·

I realize that I'm going to be in the minority here, but I find it disgusting that it's not just socially acceptable, but downright applauded to discriminate ag

by tjic 15y ago

I realize that I'm going to be in the minority here, but I find it disgusting that it's not just socially acceptable, but downright applauded to discriminate against 50% of the population because - through no fault of their own - they were born with male equipment. Yes, yes, I understand the argument that it's somehow desirable to change the gender makeup of engineering (although I've yet to see programs aimed at fixing the general balance in elementary school teaching or nursing), but this does nothing to address the problem that there are INDIVIDUALS who might like to apply for a grant but are excluded because of what's inside their underwear.

madd_o 15y ago
Right or wrong, my first reaction was also "heyyy, that's sexist"... Next is Etsy going to pay guys $5,000 to take knitting classes?
1qaz2wsx3edc 15y ago
Well, I agree with you. To me it's a "Pot calling the kettle black" idiom. You can't solve this problem through exclusion, the solution needs to be inclusive, like Lady's Learning Code and other such groups.
- Zikes 15y ago
  Excluding a group is not inclusive, nor is focusing on a particular subset. Inclusion means everyone. This is creating a positive effect for women, but having a negative effect on men by excluding them from the ability to qualify for their grants. That is not a solution, it does not solve the problem, it is a reversal of the problem which shifts the negativity to the other end of the spectrum. A proper solution would be to remove the negativity altogether, perhaps by initiating societal reforms that don't shoehorn men and women into a particular role at a young age.
dominikb 15y ago
Maybe you're complicating this. It's just a basic principle of capitalism and freedom. Etsy can give away their money to anyone they choose to, if it helps them commercially (or in any other way). We should consider this socially acceptable for our own good.
- tjic 15y ago
  > Maybe you're complicating this. It's just a basic principle of capitalism and freedom. Etsy can give away their money to anyone they choose to, if it helps them commercially (or in any other way). 100% agreed. I stand for the right for every firm to pass out scholarships, hire, fire, etc. based on all sorts of things: I support the RIGHT of bookstore owners to exclude on race, the RIGHT of golf courses to exclude on sex, etc. ...but once we turn from the topic of what people should be ALLOWED to do, and address what people SHOULD do, I will say that I dislike people who exclude on race, sex, sexual orientation, etc. Your uncle has the RIGHT to be racist (thought it makes him a jackass), and Etsy has the RIGHT to be sexist and judge people based on the accident of their birth instead of the content of their character. ...and it makes them jackasses.
GiraffeNecktie 15y ago
You're disgusted? Really? I'm a little stunned that an organization is actually being criticized for encouraging diversity in an area where it's badly, badly needed. I think that if this encourages more women to become involved with technology it would be a fantastic thing. God knows, we need it. And yes, if they gave scholarships to poor black kids or to native kids, I'd say that was a good thing too, even if it "discriminated" against rich white guys.
- timtamboy63 15y ago
  The difference is that rich white guys wouldn't need the scholarship, whereas poorer males would. Etsy is discriminating against males. I do agree that there needs to be more diversity in this industry, but I'm quite shocked at how Etsy is doing it - what makes the women chosen any better than the males who could have been chosen?
  - GiraffeNecktie 15y ago
    " what makes the women chosen any better than the males who could have been chosen?" Nothing makes them better, nothing makes them worse. The point is not to find people who are "better" but merely to fill a gap in the workforce (diversity). You can't get more diversity by hiring more of the same.
    - michaelcampbell 15y ago
      If they're not better, why incent them to be hired at the expense of others? Or is the argument that diversity is better just because it is?
      - GiraffeNecktie 15y ago
        Yes. Actually that's exactly it. Diversity is good for the workplace, good for the community, and good for the bottom line.
        15y ago

by tjic 15y ago

madd_o 15y ago

Right or wrong, my first reaction was also "heyyy, that's sexist"... Next is Etsy going to pay guys $5,000 to take knitting classes?

1qaz2wsx3edc 15y ago

Well, I agree with you. To me it's a "Pot calling the kettle black" idiom. You can't solve this problem through exclusion, the solution needs to be inclusive, like Lady's Learning Code and other such groups.

Zikes 15y ago
Excluding a group is not inclusive, nor is focusing on a particular subset. Inclusion means everyone. This is creating a positive effect for women, but having a negative effect on men by excluding them from the ability to qualify for their grants. That is not a solution, it does not solve the problem, it is a reversal of the problem which shifts the negativity to the other end of the spectrum. A proper solution would be to remove the negativity altogether, perhaps by initiating societal reforms that don't shoehorn men and women into a particular role at a young age.

dominikb 15y ago

Maybe you're complicating this. It's just a basic principle of capitalism and freedom. Etsy can give away their money to anyone they choose to, if it helps them commercially (or in any other way). We should consider this socially acceptable for our own good.

tjic 15y ago
> Maybe you're complicating this. It's just a basic principle of capitalism and freedom. Etsy can give away their money to anyone they choose to, if it helps them commercially (or in any other way). 100% agreed. I stand for the right for every firm to pass out scholarships, hire, fire, etc. based on all sorts of things: I support the RIGHT of bookstore owners to exclude on race, the RIGHT of golf courses to exclude on sex, etc. ...but once we turn from the topic of what people should be ALLOWED to do, and address what people SHOULD do, I will say that I dislike people who exclude on race, sex, sexual orientation, etc. Your uncle has the RIGHT to be racist (thought it makes him a jackass), and Etsy has the RIGHT to be sexist and judge people based on the accident of their birth instead of the content of their character. ...and it makes them jackasses.

GiraffeNecktie 15y ago

You're disgusted? Really? I'm a little stunned that an organization is actually being criticized for encouraging diversity in an area where it's badly, badly needed. I think that if this encourages more women to become involved with technology it would be a fantastic thing. God knows, we need it. And yes, if they gave scholarships to poor black kids or to native kids, I'd say that was a good thing too, even if it "discriminated" against rich white guys.

timtamboy63 15y ago
The difference is that rich white guys wouldn't need the scholarship, whereas poorer males would. Etsy is discriminating against males. I do agree that there needs to be more diversity in this industry, but I'm quite shocked at how Etsy is doing it - what makes the women chosen any better than the males who could have been chosen?
- GiraffeNecktie 15y ago
  " what makes the women chosen any better than the males who could have been chosen?" Nothing makes them better, nothing makes them worse. The point is not to find people who are "better" but merely to fill a gap in the workforce (diversity). You can't get more diversity by hiring more of the same.
  - michaelcampbell 15y ago
    If they're not better, why incent them to be hired at the expense of others? Or is the argument that diversity is better just because it is?
    - GiraffeNecktie 15y ago
      Yes. Actually that's exactly it. Diversity is good for the workplace, good for the community, and good for the bottom line.
      - 15y ago