4 ms·

I remember seeing a tweet from an AI guy at Nvidia saying they were using AI for chip layout. Presumably not LLMs and I’m not going back on X to find the tweet,

I remember seeing a tweet from an AI guy at Nvidia saying they were using AI for chip layout. Presumably not LLMs and I’m not going back on X to find the tweet, but just to say I think they are doing this (at least experimentally).

dragontamer 3y ago
The entire field of chip-layout is considered an NP-complete problem. Any computer program trying to solve NP-complete problems is in the realm of what I call "1980s AI". Traveling salesman, knapsack, automated reasoning, verification, binary decision diagrams, etc. etc. Its "AI", but its not machine learning or LLMs or whatever kids these days do with Stable Diffusion.
- WASDx 3y ago
  That's called "Classical AI".
  - brutusborn 3y ago
    Or GOFAI?
- brutusborn 3y ago
  There are plenty of researchers using machine learning for NP-complete problems. Are you saying that this work is fruitless or just that the current state of the art is still in “1980s AI” territory?
  - dragontamer 3y ago
    1980s style AI, such as Binary Decision Diagrams for automated reasoning, have continued to evolve over the last 40 years. The state of the art, today, remain BDD-based methodologies. I guess in theory machine learning could take a swing at the problem. And sure, some professor out there is probably trying to mix the fields and find new solutions or something. But the bulk of the work, and problem-solving, is BDDs for a reason. Or 3SAT-solvers, or... CSP solvers... etc. etc. Lots and lots of highly successful algorithms here. There's obviously open-questions for how to improve a CSP solver (faster, less RAM, more accurate estimations) and I've seen machine learning techniques applied before. But the bulk of the methodology remains in whatever solver model you're going for. Even today.
    - brutusborn 3y ago
      I don’t know much about chip design, but am researching automated mechanical design and your description fits there too: most of the more successful approaches are based on old-school algorithms. I suspect machine learning can help speed these up but it isn’t clear yet how effective this will be.
twobitshifter 3y ago
Qualcomms newest desktop ARM chips with much better performance were using AI for the design as well.

dragontamer 3y ago

The entire field of chip-layout is considered an NP-complete problem. Any computer program trying to solve NP-complete problems is in the realm of what I call "1980s AI". Traveling salesman, knapsack, automated reasoning, verification, binary decision diagrams, etc. etc. Its "AI", but its not machine learning or LLMs or whatever kids these days do with Stable Diffusion.

WASDx 3y ago
That's called "Classical AI".
- brutusborn 3y ago
  Or GOFAI?
brutusborn 3y ago
There are plenty of researchers using machine learning for NP-complete problems. Are you saying that this work is fruitless or just that the current state of the art is still in “1980s AI” territory?
- dragontamer 3y ago
  1980s style AI, such as Binary Decision Diagrams for automated reasoning, have continued to evolve over the last 40 years. The state of the art, today, remain BDD-based methodologies. I guess in theory machine learning could take a swing at the problem. And sure, some professor out there is probably trying to mix the fields and find new solutions or something. But the bulk of the work, and problem-solving, is BDDs for a reason. Or 3SAT-solvers, or... CSP solvers... etc. etc. Lots and lots of highly successful algorithms here. There's obviously open-questions for how to improve a CSP solver (faster, less RAM, more accurate estimations) and I've seen machine learning techniques applied before. But the bulk of the methodology remains in whatever solver model you're going for. Even today.
  - brutusborn 3y ago
    I don’t know much about chip design, but am researching automated mechanical design and your description fits there too: most of the more successful approaches are based on old-school algorithms. I suspect machine learning can help speed these up but it isn’t clear yet how effective this will be.

twobitshifter 3y ago

Qualcomms newest desktop ARM chips with much better performance were using AI for the design as well.