5 ms·

I'm slightly confused by the tone, but perhaps it's the machine translation. Is strike breaking illegal in Sweden or are they just surprised that it has happene

by bragr 3y ago

I'm slightly confused by the tone, but perhaps it's the machine translation. Is strike breaking illegal in Sweden or are they just surprised that it has happened? Is strike breaking very unusual in Sweden? Because as an American, this is exactly what I expect Tesla to do.

striking 3y ago
https://www.thelocal.se/20231027/tesla-threatens-to-bring-in-strikebreakers-as-swedish-workers-strike https://www.thelocal.se/20231027/tesla-threatens-to-bring-in... > "If they bring in strikebreakers then that's completely unique," IF Metall's bargaining agreement secretary, Veli-Pekka Säikkälä, told the newspaper. "That would be crossing all boundaries. That kind of thing happened in Sweden in the 1920s and 30s." > "If they start employing strikebreakers and actively try to break the strike, then they have mobilised the entire union movement against them. Not just the Swedish Trade Union Confederation, but all of them. Then the issue at hand becomes less important."
- eesmith 3y ago
  Further HN discussion about that link at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38036143 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38036143 .
mcv 3y ago
I think strike breaking is pretty much not-done in most of Europe, and hasn't been done for nearly a century. How this will play out is not something I can predict, but it's definitely an escalation and could result in massive boycotts and the end of Tesla in Sweden. It's certainly not a constructive step towards resolving the conflict.
- bitshiftfaced 3y ago
  Isn't the alternative just not repairing cars or doing maintenance? In the long run, that's equivalent to not doing business in Sweden anyway isn't it?
  - elaus 3y ago
    The goal of strikes is not to force the employer out of business. In other words: When a strike happens the company has one very prominent alternative besides breaking the strike or closing down forever: Finding an agreement with the striking workers.
    - mcv 3y ago
      Exactly. I fear Musk's pride and vanity might prevent him from doing so, though. I hope he doesn't get personally involved.
    - bitshiftfaced 3y ago
      If you limit a company to only that option, then they might as well give in to any and all demands, given that they have no leverage. It's like saying that unions should never strike and instead only settle disputes at the negotiation table.
      - mcv 3y ago
        Dutch unions almost never strike, because they settle everything at the negotiation table. It's a standard part of the process: employers, unions and the government discuss labour relations regularly, come to an agreement, and stick to it. It works very well. Happy workers, no strikes, productive companies. Strikes hurt everybody. Smart employers know that it's in their best interest to listen to their workers and prevent strikes.
        bitshiftfaced 3y ago
        I don't see how that's relevant. Leverage is about what you have the option to do, not what you actually do. You can have the option to strike if you're the union or hire scabs if you're the company. Both options help you get better terms. You can negotiate terms without doing either strike or strikebreaking. It happens all the time and in many countries. There was just a massive one threatened with UPS workers, which ended without a strike.
vesinisa 3y ago
Strikebreaking is not necessarily illegal but remember that Sweden, and EU in general, is very heavily unionized. And these unions are not insular - they sometimes co-operate even across sector borders to defend their members' rights (and the respect for worker's rights in general). If they are so inclined, the unions have no shortage of means to force companies to co-operate. If a company is for example breaking rules / angering the unions with impunity, the trade unions can together declare an embargo on this one company. It essentially means that all union members (which in industrial sectors is close to 100% of employees) refuse to carry out orders to e.g. make deliveries or perform services for this one company. This makes it very fast completely infeasible for the company to even operate in the country as they have no access to suppliers. Because of this, companies generally know that when operating in this part of the world they can't just use strong arm tactics to suppress union activity. It's not even that hard, these unions are not run by stupid people and they are completely capable of negotiating on sensible terms.
LeanderK 3y ago
Not swedish but very, very uncommon in germany (I actually wasn't sure whether it's illegal but apparently not, it's just not common). Usually the company tries to negotiate with the union to stop the strike, so this is probably seen as very confrontational. I don't know for how long they are striking so far, but I would see it as unbelievable confrontational, a show of force from them to prove that they dictate the terms of employment without negotiations or coming to a compromise. I feel I would not accept that. Usually it is seen that companies have a responsibility to look after their employees.
diggan 3y ago
> Is strike breaking illegal in Sweden or are they just surprised that is has happened? Not illegal, but unprecedented. Since the Saltsjöbadsavtalet in 1938, unions, workers and unions have mostly agreed on how to act, Tesla seems to be ignoring history and the country's widespread union participation, thinking they know better than 99% of the country's existing industry.
codeduck 3y ago
This smells very much like a power play by an American executive who is not familiar with just how aware European workers are about their rights.
- belltaco 3y ago
  Is there a right to strike without strike breakers being hired, in Sweden? Does not seem to be exist, so what rights are you referring to?
  - sorenjan 3y ago
    The Swedish labor market is in large parts regulated with deals between employers and unions, Sweden doesn't have a legal minimum wage for instance. There's no law forbidding strike breaking, but it's very uncommon and against the spirit of the Swedish labor market since 1938, when the Saltsjöbaden agreement was signed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saltsj%C3%B6baden_Agreement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saltsj%C3%B6baden_Agreement
  - codeduck 3y ago
    the right to strike, strangely enough. As has been pointed out elsewhere, there is an existing precedent for dealing with strike action: negotiation. There is also an existing precedent for dealing with companies that use tactics like strike-breaking, and that is systematic shunning. A company in Sweden (and elsehwere) that attempts what Tesla has done here is likely to be boycotted by ALL labour unions - finance, logistics, utilities. It is very difficult to operate when banks will not process your transactions, when calls will not route to your call centers, or when roads to your factory are not cleared by snow plows.
    - belltaco 3y ago
      I already knew that, those precedents you refer to are not legal precedents in law or court cases though. When people say rights they generally refer to legal rights.

by bragr 3y ago

striking 3y ago

https://www.thelocal.se/20231027/tesla-threatens-to-bring-in-strikebreakers-as-swedish-workers-strike https://www.thelocal.se/20231027/tesla-threatens-to-bring-in... > "If they bring in strikebreakers then that's completely unique," IF Metall's bargaining agreement secretary, Veli-Pekka Säikkälä, told the newspaper. "That would be crossing all boundaries. That kind of thing happened in Sweden in the 1920s and 30s." > "If they start employing strikebreakers and actively try to break the strike, then they have mobilised the entire union movement against them. Not just the Swedish Trade Union Confederation, but all of them. Then the issue at hand becomes less important."

eesmith 3y ago
Further HN discussion about that link at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38036143 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38036143 .

mcv 3y ago

I think strike breaking is pretty much not-done in most of Europe, and hasn't been done for nearly a century. How this will play out is not something I can predict, but it's definitely an escalation and could result in massive boycotts and the end of Tesla in Sweden. It's certainly not a constructive step towards resolving the conflict.

bitshiftfaced 3y ago
Isn't the alternative just not repairing cars or doing maintenance? In the long run, that's equivalent to not doing business in Sweden anyway isn't it?
- elaus 3y ago
  The goal of strikes is not to force the employer out of business. In other words: When a strike happens the company has one very prominent alternative besides breaking the strike or closing down forever: Finding an agreement with the striking workers.
  - mcv 3y ago
    Exactly. I fear Musk's pride and vanity might prevent him from doing so, though. I hope he doesn't get personally involved.
  - bitshiftfaced 3y ago
    If you limit a company to only that option, then they might as well give in to any and all demands, given that they have no leverage. It's like saying that unions should never strike and instead only settle disputes at the negotiation table.
    - mcv 3y ago
      Dutch unions almost never strike, because they settle everything at the negotiation table. It's a standard part of the process: employers, unions and the government discuss labour relations regularly, come to an agreement, and stick to it. It works very well. Happy workers, no strikes, productive companies. Strikes hurt everybody. Smart employers know that it's in their best interest to listen to their workers and prevent strikes.
      - bitshiftfaced 3y ago
        I don't see how that's relevant. Leverage is about what you have the option to do, not what you actually do. You can have the option to strike if you're the union or hire scabs if you're the company. Both options help you get better terms. You can negotiate terms without doing either strike or strikebreaking. It happens all the time and in many countries. There was just a massive one threatened with UPS workers, which ended without a strike.

vesinisa 3y ago

Strikebreaking is not necessarily illegal but remember that Sweden, and EU in general, is very heavily unionized. And these unions are not insular - they sometimes co-operate even across sector borders to defend their members' rights (and the respect for worker's rights in general). If they are so inclined, the unions have no shortage of means to force companies to co-operate. If a company is for example breaking rules / angering the unions with impunity, the trade unions can together declare an embargo on this one company. It essentially means that all union members (which in industrial sectors is close to 100% of employees) refuse to carry out orders to e.g. make deliveries or perform services for this one company. This makes it very fast completely infeasible for the company to even operate in the country as they have no access to suppliers. Because of this, companies generally know that when operating in this part of the world they can't just use strong arm tactics to suppress union activity. It's not even that hard, these unions are not run by stupid people and they are completely capable of negotiating on sensible terms.

LeanderK 3y ago

Not swedish but very, very uncommon in germany (I actually wasn't sure whether it's illegal but apparently not, it's just not common). Usually the company tries to negotiate with the union to stop the strike, so this is probably seen as very confrontational. I don't know for how long they are striking so far, but I would see it as unbelievable confrontational, a show of force from them to prove that they dictate the terms of employment without negotiations or coming to a compromise. I feel I would not accept that. Usually it is seen that companies have a responsibility to look after their employees.

diggan 3y ago

> Is strike breaking illegal in Sweden or are they just surprised that is has happened? Not illegal, but unprecedented. Since the Saltsjöbadsavtalet in 1938, unions, workers and unions have mostly agreed on how to act, Tesla seems to be ignoring history and the country's widespread union participation, thinking they know better than 99% of the country's existing industry.

codeduck 3y ago

This smells very much like a power play by an American executive who is not familiar with just how aware European workers are about their rights.

belltaco 3y ago
Is there a right to strike without strike breakers being hired, in Sweden? Does not seem to be exist, so what rights are you referring to?
- sorenjan 3y ago
  The Swedish labor market is in large parts regulated with deals between employers and unions, Sweden doesn't have a legal minimum wage for instance. There's no law forbidding strike breaking, but it's very uncommon and against the spirit of the Swedish labor market since 1938, when the Saltsjöbaden agreement was signed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saltsj%C3%B6baden_Agreement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saltsj%C3%B6baden_Agreement
- codeduck 3y ago
  the right to strike, strangely enough. As has been pointed out elsewhere, there is an existing precedent for dealing with strike action: negotiation. There is also an existing precedent for dealing with companies that use tactics like strike-breaking, and that is systematic shunning. A company in Sweden (and elsehwere) that attempts what Tesla has done here is likely to be boycotted by ALL labour unions - finance, logistics, utilities. It is very difficult to operate when banks will not process your transactions, when calls will not route to your call centers, or when roads to your factory are not cleared by snow plows.
  - belltaco 3y ago
    I already knew that, those precedents you refer to are not legal precedents in law or court cases though. When people say rights they generally refer to legal rights.