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Intel straggler here ! When M1 hit I was certain I would get a M Apple in a year or two when they iron out the transition. It was just leaps and bounds ahead of

Intel straggler here ! When M1 hit I was certain I would get a M Apple in a year or two when they iron out the transition. It was just leaps and bounds ahead of others and the pricing was great. Now I think AMD and Intel caught up enough, Apple didn't keep the momentum, and they do standard Apple pricing discrimination - I think I'll take a gamble on Framework AMD version. I really like the idea behind the self-repairable upgradeable device and want to support them. If I was able to work on my Apple Intel i9 overheating PoS for past few years I'll be better off with anything, might as well support the stuff I like.

turblety 3y ago
> Now I think AMD and Intel caught up enough Interesting. I don't really like Apple, mainly because of how they handle the app store vendor lock in stuff, and I hate macOS. But I use an M2 MBP purely because I can't find any other laptop that has the same fast performance, long battery life, quiet fan noise, no heat. Can you recommend an AMD/Intel or anything that comes close? I'd switch in a heartbeat. The closest that comes to mind is the ThinkPad X13s.
- leonroy 3y ago
  I just bought a Thinkpad T14S Gen3 after evaluating a bunch of notebooks. Compared to my Macbook Air the Mac excels in a couple of areas which Thinkpad is lacking in. Like ambient light sensor, port quality (ie. how recessed the USB-C port is and how much strain it can take), audio output quality (Macs have powered headphone jacks for high impedance headphones) and of course speaker quality which on Macs is second to none. The Thinkpad by comparison has poor quality speakers, no ambient light sensor so it doesn't auto adjust the screen or keyboard backlight. Its USB-C ports are also not very strong so the any strain on them or wiggle will cause them to disconnect - they certainly feel very fragile. I hear the Thinkpad Z13/Z16 is more comparable to a Macbook but again it doesn't have little details like an ambient light sensor which seems an odd omission in a luxury laptop and price wise it's practically the same. That said, the new AMD Ryzen 7840HS and 7940HS chips are pretty competitive with an equivalent Apple M2: https://browser.geekbench.com/processors/amd-ryzen-9-7940hs https://browser.geekbench.com/processors/amd-ryzen-9-7940hs https://browser.geekbench.com/macs/mac14-15 https://browser.geekbench.com/macs/mac14-15
  - LtdJorge 3y ago
    And GeekBench is a pretty bad benchmark. There's also the 7945HX which is a 16 core CPU, but only comes with big dedicated GPUs, sadly.
- pb7 3y ago
  > I don't really like Apple, mainly because of how they handle the app store vendor lock in stuff, and I hate macOS. But I use an M2 MBP purely because I can't find any other laptop that has the same fast performance, long battery life, quiet fan noise, no heat. Buying their products for the same reason everyone else does is "liking Apple".
  - simjnd 3y ago
    You can like or use a product without liking the company making it or its practices
    - pb7 3y ago
      Your only relationship to the company is via the goods and services it sells to you. If you buy their products, you like the company and their practices. The product is the culmination of all of their practices.
      - jodrellblank 3y ago
        "I don't like being a galley slave but if I stop rowing, they whip me" "Rowing for the same reason everyone else rows is 'liking slavery'". Counter-proof by reductio ad absurdum.
        toyg 3y ago
        So you admit of being a prisoner in an ecosystem built to ruthlessly exploit you...?
        jodrellblank 3y ago
        I own zero Apple laptops, desktops, watches or subscriptions, and one low spec. 2016 iPhone bought second hand. That's hardly being a prisoner or being ruthlessly exploited, is it? If you hate Disney's Frozen because you've seen it so many times, but you watch it with your daughter because she likes Frozen, does that mean you like Frozen because you're doing the same thing that people who like it are doing? No; people's motivation for the same thing can be different. People can do thing they disapprove of, for reasons other than approving of thing.
- rafaelmn 3y ago
  I use my laptop as a portable workstation so I rarely use built in keyboard, touchpad, battery, etc. From what I see AMD 7840 CPUs deliver similar performance to M2. I think I'll get an Framework 16 or 13 with AMD in a few months, will make sure Linux drivers are in order before ordering.
commandersaki 3y ago
I have a 12th gen Framework 13", 13" M1 Air, and a 15" M2 Air. I use the Framework laptop for work because I need to use Linux. The Framework laptop is mediocre just like pretty much all PC laptops. The hinges are awful, if you pick up the laptop upright, about 50% of the time the screen falls flat 180 degrees. The trackpad is arse in Linux. If you're lucky you can probably get 5 hours battery life, but on a realistic workload you're looking at 2-3 hours. The keyboard is pretty nice, but I wish ctrl/fn is swapped like Apple and it has the inverted mini-T keyboard arrows (or at least I wish someone would make a swappable keyboard for the Framework). The speakers are bloody awful. Display/Webcam/Mic are fine. I would like more ports over modular ports, but I appreciate the design that went into the modular ports. Speaking of modular ports, sometimes they abruptly stop working and require removing and reseating. All these small nits really add up and it just feels like a mediocre experience. It is my work laptop, but I try my best to avoid using it over my PC with WSL2 or either Air laptop, but I try my best not to mix work and personal. Both the 13" M1 Air and 15" M2 Air are just amazing compared to the Framework, and I suspect PC laptops in general. They have their drawbacks, price (gouging in some ways), less ports, can't drive dual displays, but their trackpad, finish, speakers, etc. are just amazing. I personally prefer MacOS to Linux for a desktop experience as well.
- rafaelmn 3y ago
  Thing is I use integrated keyboard/trackpad maybe a few times a week in conference rooms, same for battery - 5 hours is plenty for presentations and meetings. I want a portable workstation that I can occasionally use as a laptop, so build quality and laptop stuff isn't that big of a deal to me. I'm always using a screen via USBC + dedicated keyboard and mouse. Performance and noise are a factor - I'm hoping that AMD versions deliver on that. I'm leaning towards framework because if my current MBP dies I can't do anything about it since it's been out of warenty for years. And upgrading it eventually with next gen CPU without having to change storage/RAM, etc. sounds nice.
- dkonofalski 3y ago
  This is where I am. I have several PCs, a 15" Intel MBP, a 16" M2 Max MBP, an M2 MBA, and a 14" M1 Pro MBP. If I didn't have to use the PCs, I wouldn't because of how good the Macs have been for me. My team and I do a combination of web/app development, media production, and 2D/3D graphics. While we won't be replacing our PC towers anytime soon, our laptops are going to be Macs going forward with the exception of testing on the PCs we have. I can run Autodesk Fusion 360 and Blender on my MBA well enough that it makes no sense for us to force ourselves onto the more mediocre experience.
Clubber 3y ago
The big thing I like about the M's is how quiet they are. I hate fan whirr in my old age.
Rapzid 3y ago
Wasn't AMD pretty much right behind in single thread perf and a bit behind in peak perf TPU, but always ahead in multi-core perf options? I'm very happy with my Ryzen 7 6800U. Matte screen? Check. Lots of full perf cores? Check. USB A and C? Check. Really good battery even though I'm plugged in all the time? Check. X86-64? Check.

turblety 3y ago

> Now I think AMD and Intel caught up enough Interesting. I don't really like Apple, mainly because of how they handle the app store vendor lock in stuff, and I hate macOS. But I use an M2 MBP purely because I can't find any other laptop that has the same fast performance, long battery life, quiet fan noise, no heat. Can you recommend an AMD/Intel or anything that comes close? I'd switch in a heartbeat. The closest that comes to mind is the ThinkPad X13s.

leonroy 3y ago
I just bought a Thinkpad T14S Gen3 after evaluating a bunch of notebooks. Compared to my Macbook Air the Mac excels in a couple of areas which Thinkpad is lacking in. Like ambient light sensor, port quality (ie. how recessed the USB-C port is and how much strain it can take), audio output quality (Macs have powered headphone jacks for high impedance headphones) and of course speaker quality which on Macs is second to none. The Thinkpad by comparison has poor quality speakers, no ambient light sensor so it doesn't auto adjust the screen or keyboard backlight. Its USB-C ports are also not very strong so the any strain on them or wiggle will cause them to disconnect - they certainly feel very fragile. I hear the Thinkpad Z13/Z16 is more comparable to a Macbook but again it doesn't have little details like an ambient light sensor which seems an odd omission in a luxury laptop and price wise it's practically the same. That said, the new AMD Ryzen 7840HS and 7940HS chips are pretty competitive with an equivalent Apple M2: https://browser.geekbench.com/processors/amd-ryzen-9-7940hs https://browser.geekbench.com/processors/amd-ryzen-9-7940hs https://browser.geekbench.com/macs/mac14-15 https://browser.geekbench.com/macs/mac14-15
- LtdJorge 3y ago
  And GeekBench is a pretty bad benchmark. There's also the 7945HX which is a 16 core CPU, but only comes with big dedicated GPUs, sadly.
pb7 3y ago
> I don't really like Apple, mainly because of how they handle the app store vendor lock in stuff, and I hate macOS. But I use an M2 MBP purely because I can't find any other laptop that has the same fast performance, long battery life, quiet fan noise, no heat. Buying their products for the same reason everyone else does is "liking Apple".
- simjnd 3y ago
  You can like or use a product without liking the company making it or its practices
  - pb7 3y ago
    Your only relationship to the company is via the goods and services it sells to you. If you buy their products, you like the company and their practices. The product is the culmination of all of their practices.
    - jodrellblank 3y ago
      "I don't like being a galley slave but if I stop rowing, they whip me" "Rowing for the same reason everyone else rows is 'liking slavery'". Counter-proof by reductio ad absurdum.
      - toyg 3y ago
        So you admit of being a prisoner in an ecosystem built to ruthlessly exploit you...?
        jodrellblank 3y ago
        I own zero Apple laptops, desktops, watches or subscriptions, and one low spec. 2016 iPhone bought second hand. That's hardly being a prisoner or being ruthlessly exploited, is it? If you hate Disney's Frozen because you've seen it so many times, but you watch it with your daughter because she likes Frozen, does that mean you like Frozen because you're doing the same thing that people who like it are doing? No; people's motivation for the same thing can be different. People can do thing they disapprove of, for reasons other than approving of thing.
rafaelmn 3y ago
I use my laptop as a portable workstation so I rarely use built in keyboard, touchpad, battery, etc. From what I see AMD 7840 CPUs deliver similar performance to M2. I think I'll get an Framework 16 or 13 with AMD in a few months, will make sure Linux drivers are in order before ordering.

commandersaki 3y ago

I have a 12th gen Framework 13", 13" M1 Air, and a 15" M2 Air. I use the Framework laptop for work because I need to use Linux. The Framework laptop is mediocre just like pretty much all PC laptops. The hinges are awful, if you pick up the laptop upright, about 50% of the time the screen falls flat 180 degrees. The trackpad is arse in Linux. If you're lucky you can probably get 5 hours battery life, but on a realistic workload you're looking at 2-3 hours. The keyboard is pretty nice, but I wish ctrl/fn is swapped like Apple and it has the inverted mini-T keyboard arrows (or at least I wish someone would make a swappable keyboard for the Framework). The speakers are bloody awful. Display/Webcam/Mic are fine. I would like more ports over modular ports, but I appreciate the design that went into the modular ports. Speaking of modular ports, sometimes they abruptly stop working and require removing and reseating. All these small nits really add up and it just feels like a mediocre experience. It is my work laptop, but I try my best to avoid using it over my PC with WSL2 or either Air laptop, but I try my best not to mix work and personal. Both the 13" M1 Air and 15" M2 Air are just amazing compared to the Framework, and I suspect PC laptops in general. They have their drawbacks, price (gouging in some ways), less ports, can't drive dual displays, but their trackpad, finish, speakers, etc. are just amazing. I personally prefer MacOS to Linux for a desktop experience as well.

rafaelmn 3y ago
Thing is I use integrated keyboard/trackpad maybe a few times a week in conference rooms, same for battery - 5 hours is plenty for presentations and meetings. I want a portable workstation that I can occasionally use as a laptop, so build quality and laptop stuff isn't that big of a deal to me. I'm always using a screen via USBC + dedicated keyboard and mouse. Performance and noise are a factor - I'm hoping that AMD versions deliver on that. I'm leaning towards framework because if my current MBP dies I can't do anything about it since it's been out of warenty for years. And upgrading it eventually with next gen CPU without having to change storage/RAM, etc. sounds nice.
dkonofalski 3y ago
This is where I am. I have several PCs, a 15" Intel MBP, a 16" M2 Max MBP, an M2 MBA, and a 14" M1 Pro MBP. If I didn't have to use the PCs, I wouldn't because of how good the Macs have been for me. My team and I do a combination of web/app development, media production, and 2D/3D graphics. While we won't be replacing our PC towers anytime soon, our laptops are going to be Macs going forward with the exception of testing on the PCs we have. I can run Autodesk Fusion 360 and Blender on my MBA well enough that it makes no sense for us to force ourselves onto the more mediocre experience.

Clubber 3y ago

The big thing I like about the M's is how quiet they are. I hate fan whirr in my old age.

Rapzid 3y ago

Wasn't AMD pretty much right behind in single thread perf and a bit behind in peak perf TPU, but always ahead in multi-core perf options? I'm very happy with my Ryzen 7 6800U. Matte screen? Check. Lots of full perf cores? Check. USB A and C? Check. Really good battery even though I'm plugged in all the time? Check. X86-64? Check.