7 ms·

fwiw, i cant remember the last time i saw a company go back more than a generation in their own comparison. Apple is saying here as much as they're not saying h

fwiw, i cant remember the last time i saw a company go back more than a generation in their own comparison. Apple is saying here as much as they're not saying here. M2->M3 may not be a compelling upgrade story.

sudhirj 3y ago
It’s absolutely not, and that’s fine. The video has statements that the machines are made to “last for years” and they want to save natural resources be making long lasting machines. I’m currently at 4 to 5 years on laptops and 3 to 4 years on phones, and even then I hand them over to kids/friends/family who get a bit more use out of them.
- parl_match 3y ago
  > they want to save natural resources be making long lasting machines. Apple always comes from a position of strength. Again, they're saying as much as they're not saying. Also, if they really cared about long lasting machines: slotted ram and flash please, thanks!
  - lillecarl 3y ago
    I have no excuse for flash, but memory can't really be slotted anymore since SODIMM is crap. High hopes for CAMM making it's way into every other machine 2024!
  - sudhirj 3y ago
    Huh. So they used to do this, but looking at the M series chips it seems like the architecture assumes the CPU-GPU-RAM are all on the same chip and hooked into each other, which enables zero copy. Someone more well versed in hardware could explain if this is even possible. Expandable internal storage would be nice, yeah. But I get the sealed, very tightly packed chassis they’re going for.
    - strangetortoise 3y ago
      They haven't made slotted ram or storage on their macbooks since 2012 (retina macbooks removed the slotted ram afaik). It might save on thickness, but I'm not buying the slim chasses argument being the only reason, since they happily made their devices thicker for the M series cpus.
      - pbmonster 3y ago
        > It might save on thickness, but I'm not buying the slim chasses argument being the only reason Soldered memory allows higher bus frequency much, much easier. From a high frequency perspective, the slots are a nightmare.
        Jetrel 3y ago
        It's not soldered. It used to be, but ever since the M1, it's in-CPU. The ram is actually part of the CPU die. Needless to say it has batshit insane implications for memory bandwidth. I've got an M1, and the load time for apps is absolutely fucking insane by comparison to my iMac; there's at least one AAA game whose loading time dropped from about 5 minutes on my quad-core intel, to 5 seconds on my mac studio. There's just a shitload of text-processing and compiling going on any time a large game gets launched. It's been incredibly good for compiling C++ and Node apps, as well.
        redeeman 3y ago
        the ram is not on die, and 5 min to 5 sec is obviously due to other things, if legit
        thirdsun 3y ago
        Sounds like the iMac had spinning hard disks rather than SSD storage.
      - pdpi 3y ago
        Yup. I’ve been looking at the Framework laptop, and it’s barely any thicker than the current MacBook Pro.
- layer8 3y ago
  Given that there is a legally mandated 2-year warranty period at least in Europe, I would be surprised if any laptops weren’t made to “last for years”. The problem with Apple, however, is that their hardware will long outlive their software support. So if they really want to save natural resources by making long-lasting machines, they should put much more effort into sustained software support.
  - wkat4242 3y ago
    Yes my MacBook Pro 2010 is still going strong. But, drivers are only available for win 7 and macOS High Sierra was the last supported version. Luckily Linux still works great.
CharlesW 3y ago
The vast majority of Mac users go years between upgrades. For any other vendor it might seem weird to show several comparisons going back multiple generations (M1 and x86), but for the macOS ecosystem it makes perfect sense since only a very tiny slice of M2 users will be upgrading.
- read_if_gay_ 3y ago
  and what makes you think windows users update their devices every single generation?
  - coldtea 3y ago
    Windows users buy whatever, from so many brands, that it doesn't matter how often they upgrade, they're likely to not upgrade from the same vendor anyway (so that the comparison to its older generations to be meaningful in the first place).
  - acdha 3y ago
    Windows has distinct groups: the people who buy whatever costs $700 at Costco every 10 years / when it breaks don’t care but there’s also a vocal enthusiast community who do upgrade frequently. That group gets more attention since it’s a profitable niche and gaming generates a lot of revenue.
    - andrewprock 3y ago
      I used buy a $700 Windows laptop every 18 months in the 2000s. Then I got fed up with them just falling apart and switched to Macbooks. My 2013 purchase is still alive and being used by the kids.
      - acdha 3y ago
        Yeah, the quality of PC laptops has improved but that really just means you can get closer to equivalent quality at equivalent pricing. I've heard people claim to have saved a ton but every single time I used one there was some noticeable quality decrease, which I find kind of refreshing as a reminder that the market does actually work pretty well.
photonerd 3y ago
The majority of MacBooks out there are still intel based. This presentation was mostly aimed at them & M1 owners.
alpaca128 3y ago
> i cant remember the last time i saw a company go back more than a generation in their own comparison Apple likes doing that quite frequently while dumping their "up to X% better" stats on you for minutes.
henriquez 3y ago
Nvidia did it when they released the RTX 3080 / 3090 because the RTX 2000 series was kind of a dud upgrade from GTX 1060 and 1080 Ti
kjkjadksj 3y ago
Apple always does game comparisons like this for their conferences though. The intel era was even worse with this iirc.
- sgerenser 3y ago
  Intel era there wasn’t much to game, they’re using the same chips as all the PC competitors. The PowerPC era, on the other hand…
kergonath 3y ago
Is it a problem, though? The vast majority of people skip generation and for them the relevant reference point is what they have, which is going to be hardware from a couple of generations ago. M2 -> M3 does not have to be compelling: the people with M3 devices are a tiny fraction of the market anyway. I find it interesting how people respond to this. On one side, it’s marketing so it should be taken critically. OTOH, if they stress the improvements over the last generation, people say they create artificial demand and things about sheeple; if they compare to generations before people say that it’s deceptive and that they lost their edge. It seems that some vocal people are going to complain regardless.

sudhirj 3y ago

It’s absolutely not, and that’s fine. The video has statements that the machines are made to “last for years” and they want to save natural resources be making long lasting machines. I’m currently at 4 to 5 years on laptops and 3 to 4 years on phones, and even then I hand them over to kids/friends/family who get a bit more use out of them.

parl_match 3y ago
> they want to save natural resources be making long lasting machines. Apple always comes from a position of strength. Again, they're saying as much as they're not saying. Also, if they really cared about long lasting machines: slotted ram and flash please, thanks!
- lillecarl 3y ago
  I have no excuse for flash, but memory can't really be slotted anymore since SODIMM is crap. High hopes for CAMM making it's way into every other machine 2024!
- sudhirj 3y ago
  Huh. So they used to do this, but looking at the M series chips it seems like the architecture assumes the CPU-GPU-RAM are all on the same chip and hooked into each other, which enables zero copy. Someone more well versed in hardware could explain if this is even possible. Expandable internal storage would be nice, yeah. But I get the sealed, very tightly packed chassis they’re going for.
  - strangetortoise 3y ago
    They haven't made slotted ram or storage on their macbooks since 2012 (retina macbooks removed the slotted ram afaik). It might save on thickness, but I'm not buying the slim chasses argument being the only reason, since they happily made their devices thicker for the M series cpus.
    - pbmonster 3y ago
      > It might save on thickness, but I'm not buying the slim chasses argument being the only reason Soldered memory allows higher bus frequency much, much easier. From a high frequency perspective, the slots are a nightmare.
      - Jetrel 3y ago
        It's not soldered. It used to be, but ever since the M1, it's in-CPU. The ram is actually part of the CPU die. Needless to say it has batshit insane implications for memory bandwidth. I've got an M1, and the load time for apps is absolutely fucking insane by comparison to my iMac; there's at least one AAA game whose loading time dropped from about 5 minutes on my quad-core intel, to 5 seconds on my mac studio. There's just a shitload of text-processing and compiling going on any time a large game gets launched. It's been incredibly good for compiling C++ and Node apps, as well.
        redeeman 3y ago
        the ram is not on die, and 5 min to 5 sec is obviously due to other things, if legit
        thirdsun 3y ago
        Sounds like the iMac had spinning hard disks rather than SSD storage.
    - pdpi 3y ago
      Yup. I’ve been looking at the Framework laptop, and it’s barely any thicker than the current MacBook Pro.
layer8 3y ago
Given that there is a legally mandated 2-year warranty period at least in Europe, I would be surprised if any laptops weren’t made to “last for years”. The problem with Apple, however, is that their hardware will long outlive their software support. So if they really want to save natural resources by making long-lasting machines, they should put much more effort into sustained software support.
- wkat4242 3y ago
  Yes my MacBook Pro 2010 is still going strong. But, drivers are only available for win 7 and macOS High Sierra was the last supported version. Luckily Linux still works great.

CharlesW 3y ago

The vast majority of Mac users go years between upgrades. For any other vendor it might seem weird to show several comparisons going back multiple generations (M1 and x86), but for the macOS ecosystem it makes perfect sense since only a very tiny slice of M2 users will be upgrading.

read_if_gay_ 3y ago
and what makes you think windows users update their devices every single generation?
- coldtea 3y ago
  Windows users buy whatever, from so many brands, that it doesn't matter how often they upgrade, they're likely to not upgrade from the same vendor anyway (so that the comparison to its older generations to be meaningful in the first place).
- acdha 3y ago
  Windows has distinct groups: the people who buy whatever costs $700 at Costco every 10 years / when it breaks don’t care but there’s also a vocal enthusiast community who do upgrade frequently. That group gets more attention since it’s a profitable niche and gaming generates a lot of revenue.
  - andrewprock 3y ago
    I used buy a $700 Windows laptop every 18 months in the 2000s. Then I got fed up with them just falling apart and switched to Macbooks. My 2013 purchase is still alive and being used by the kids.
    - acdha 3y ago
      Yeah, the quality of PC laptops has improved but that really just means you can get closer to equivalent quality at equivalent pricing. I've heard people claim to have saved a ton but every single time I used one there was some noticeable quality decrease, which I find kind of refreshing as a reminder that the market does actually work pretty well.

photonerd 3y ago

The majority of MacBooks out there are still intel based. This presentation was mostly aimed at them & M1 owners.

alpaca128 3y ago

> i cant remember the last time i saw a company go back more than a generation in their own comparison Apple likes doing that quite frequently while dumping their "up to X% better" stats on you for minutes.

henriquez 3y ago

Nvidia did it when they released the RTX 3080 / 3090 because the RTX 2000 series was kind of a dud upgrade from GTX 1060 and 1080 Ti

kjkjadksj 3y ago

Apple always does game comparisons like this for their conferences though. The intel era was even worse with this iirc.

sgerenser 3y ago
Intel era there wasn’t much to game, they’re using the same chips as all the PC competitors. The PowerPC era, on the other hand…

kergonath 3y ago

Is it a problem, though? The vast majority of people skip generation and for them the relevant reference point is what they have, which is going to be hardware from a couple of generations ago. M2 -> M3 does not have to be compelling: the people with M3 devices are a tiny fraction of the market anyway. I find it interesting how people respond to this. On one side, it’s marketing so it should be taken critically. OTOH, if they stress the improvements over the last generation, people say they create artificial demand and things about sheeple; if they compare to generations before people say that it’s deceptive and that they lost their edge. It seems that some vocal people are going to complain regardless.