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There is probably sufficient global surplus to ensure that children do not need to work to survive. As described in the article, companies that control supply

There is probably sufficient global surplus to ensure that children do not need to work to survive. As described in the article, companies that control supply chains can squeeze suppliers so that all the surplus accumulates in wealthier countries, instead of with the suppliers. That is not an inevitability, it is a choice made by “our society”. My point was against the sense of inevitability in the parent reply. We can imagine and enact a more equitable distribution. We don’t even need to mess around with socialism for decades to do it

rayiner 3y ago
Even if there was such a surplus, distributing it at a global level would require global governance that would eliminate that surplus.
- em-bee 3y ago
  not at all. all it would require is the will to actually do it. while you may have a point that in the current state, companies won't willingly reduce their profits to do that, and maybe the only way to get them to make this change right now would be force them and create a massive bureaucracy to make it happen, this is not the only way this can be addressed. for one, our governments could support african countries in charging more for the product. this could be done through trade agreements that are more supportive and less exploitative as they currently are. say for example the price of raw cocoa may have to triple to ensure that the producers at the end get double of what they are getting now. (i think that was what was needed to bring the income to minimum living standards) how much governance is needed to make that happen? once the trade agreements are fixed, it should mostly be spot checking the market prices to make sure the money ends up in the right places. that can't be that hard.
  - rayiner 3y ago
    > not at all. all it would require is the will to actually do it. Oh the magical things that could happen if we all only had “the will to do it.” I can’t think of a more naively destructive idea. And what shall the people of these countries do while they wait for their white saviors to develop the “will to do it?”
    - em-bee 3y ago
      for the past half century poverty worldwide has been reduced drastically, and i see no reason for that trend not to continue. public opinion on this topic continues to improve. the problem is not a lack of will in the individuals but a lack of awareness. and that is slowly changing, thanks to presentations like this one among others. you see, just like you ridicule the belief that people can change and we can fix things, i could say: ah, well, it is all hopeless. we will never be able to change the attitude of enough people for this to be ever successful. let's just give up. corporations will never change, and they will continue to exploit the world for their personal gain for the forseeable future. HOW IS THAT ANY LESS DESTRUCTIVE? nobody said anything about waiting. especially not for a savior. we all need to act. every one of us. to start holding corporations to account, and demand that they change their business practices. that will does not come from nowhere. it comes from individual action. i am talking to people almost every day to tell them what i am doing to improve lives of people in poverty, and what they could be doing as well. you are free to choose to laugh at us, or you know, you could be doing something yourself as well. the more of us become active, the sooner we can achieve a lasting change. this is not an issue of white saviors rescuing africa. this is an issue of us colonialists cleaning up the mess that we created and are responsible for. that's why i am talking about change of trade agreements. we need to reign in our corporations and get them to stop their exploitative practices and we need to implement trade agreements that ensure that the resources we take out of africa are paid at a fair price. then it is up to african countries themselves to figure out how to invest that income to the benefit of their own people.
      - rayiner 3y ago
        > for the past half century poverty worldwide has been reduced drastically, and i see no reason for that trend not to continue Because of capitalism, not wealth redistribution from white saviors. > this is not an issue of white saviors rescuing africa. this is an issue of us colonialists cleaning up the mess that we created and are responsible for. You won’t do that, and anyone who waits around for that to happen or wasted energy or political capital engaging with that is a moron. A dangerous moron. For example, Britain will not give India back a cent of the trillions it stole from them, nor will the Muslim empires who came before them. The only non-idiotic course of action for a country like India is to try and get rich on the same course of development Britain pursued. Not sitting around with their hand out. It occurred to me the other day that if my home country of Bangladesh had pursued capitalism from the outset, instead of fucking around for decades with socialism, my family might still be together in Bangladesh instead of scattered around a bunch of white people’s countries. What happened before doesn’t matter. What matters is economic development, as fast as possible. The prospect of white saviorism meaningfully fixing anything is so remote—because the sacrifice that would be required in their part is so massive—that even talking about it is destructive in distracting from the urgency of economic development.
  - kvakerok 3y ago
    "The burden of a white man" - 2023 version.
    - em-bee 3y ago
      if we want this world to improve we have to do something about it. that's what i believe is the very purpose of our life on this planet. if i want to have a better life for myself, i need to help making life better for others too. that's not a burden. for me that's a conviction, which is true regardless of what "the white man" did or didn't do. i am not talking about making up for past sins. i am talking about stopping the exploitative trading that still happens today. it's not the only problem in this world, nor is it only white people who are causing problems, but it happens to be the problem that we are discussing here.
tivert 3y ago
> There is probably sufficient global surplus to ensure that children do not need to work to survive. You're right, but capitalist ethics says that surplus must go to the owners and investors, not poor kids in Africa.

rayiner 3y ago

Even if there was such a surplus, distributing it at a global level would require global governance that would eliminate that surplus.

em-bee 3y ago
not at all. all it would require is the will to actually do it. while you may have a point that in the current state, companies won't willingly reduce their profits to do that, and maybe the only way to get them to make this change right now would be force them and create a massive bureaucracy to make it happen, this is not the only way this can be addressed. for one, our governments could support african countries in charging more for the product. this could be done through trade agreements that are more supportive and less exploitative as they currently are. say for example the price of raw cocoa may have to triple to ensure that the producers at the end get double of what they are getting now. (i think that was what was needed to bring the income to minimum living standards) how much governance is needed to make that happen? once the trade agreements are fixed, it should mostly be spot checking the market prices to make sure the money ends up in the right places. that can't be that hard.
- rayiner 3y ago
  > not at all. all it would require is the will to actually do it. Oh the magical things that could happen if we all only had “the will to do it.” I can’t think of a more naively destructive idea. And what shall the people of these countries do while they wait for their white saviors to develop the “will to do it?”
  - em-bee 3y ago
    for the past half century poverty worldwide has been reduced drastically, and i see no reason for that trend not to continue. public opinion on this topic continues to improve. the problem is not a lack of will in the individuals but a lack of awareness. and that is slowly changing, thanks to presentations like this one among others. you see, just like you ridicule the belief that people can change and we can fix things, i could say: ah, well, it is all hopeless. we will never be able to change the attitude of enough people for this to be ever successful. let's just give up. corporations will never change, and they will continue to exploit the world for their personal gain for the forseeable future. HOW IS THAT ANY LESS DESTRUCTIVE? nobody said anything about waiting. especially not for a savior. we all need to act. every one of us. to start holding corporations to account, and demand that they change their business practices. that will does not come from nowhere. it comes from individual action. i am talking to people almost every day to tell them what i am doing to improve lives of people in poverty, and what they could be doing as well. you are free to choose to laugh at us, or you know, you could be doing something yourself as well. the more of us become active, the sooner we can achieve a lasting change. this is not an issue of white saviors rescuing africa. this is an issue of us colonialists cleaning up the mess that we created and are responsible for. that's why i am talking about change of trade agreements. we need to reign in our corporations and get them to stop their exploitative practices and we need to implement trade agreements that ensure that the resources we take out of africa are paid at a fair price. then it is up to african countries themselves to figure out how to invest that income to the benefit of their own people.
    - rayiner 3y ago
      > for the past half century poverty worldwide has been reduced drastically, and i see no reason for that trend not to continue Because of capitalism, not wealth redistribution from white saviors. > this is not an issue of white saviors rescuing africa. this is an issue of us colonialists cleaning up the mess that we created and are responsible for. You won’t do that, and anyone who waits around for that to happen or wasted energy or political capital engaging with that is a moron. A dangerous moron. For example, Britain will not give India back a cent of the trillions it stole from them, nor will the Muslim empires who came before them. The only non-idiotic course of action for a country like India is to try and get rich on the same course of development Britain pursued. Not sitting around with their hand out. It occurred to me the other day that if my home country of Bangladesh had pursued capitalism from the outset, instead of fucking around for decades with socialism, my family might still be together in Bangladesh instead of scattered around a bunch of white people’s countries. What happened before doesn’t matter. What matters is economic development, as fast as possible. The prospect of white saviorism meaningfully fixing anything is so remote—because the sacrifice that would be required in their part is so massive—that even talking about it is destructive in distracting from the urgency of economic development.
- kvakerok 3y ago
  "The burden of a white man" - 2023 version.
  - em-bee 3y ago
    if we want this world to improve we have to do something about it. that's what i believe is the very purpose of our life on this planet. if i want to have a better life for myself, i need to help making life better for others too. that's not a burden. for me that's a conviction, which is true regardless of what "the white man" did or didn't do. i am not talking about making up for past sins. i am talking about stopping the exploitative trading that still happens today. it's not the only problem in this world, nor is it only white people who are causing problems, but it happens to be the problem that we are discussing here.

tivert 3y ago

> There is probably sufficient global surplus to ensure that children do not need to work to survive. You're right, but capitalist ethics says that surplus must go to the owners and investors, not poor kids in Africa.