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I was just reading something related to that (can't remember the text) but the gist was that improvement in hardware do not follows software as they try to limi

I was just reading something related to that (can't remember the text) but the gist was that improvement in hardware do not follows software as they try to limit the control that the user has over that hardware. My own impressions after 4 years with apple devices is that there is no expert mode on the Mac. It, and the iPhone and the iPad, are computing appliances, something you use to get work done. They either work for you, or they don't. The mac is more flexible than the others, but the whole ecosystem is trending towards making your workflows fitting the tools, not the tools fitting to the workflow.

scarface_74 3y ago
So exactly how does the Mac keep you from running software you want to run?
- skydhash 3y ago
  - Notarization - Opaque apps - Locked down hardware - SIP,... You can go and find a solution for most of the shackles, but then you're likely to break down the whole system as it was not designed to be that way. The mac is fragile in terms of customizability. It's not that it's preventing running software, it's that it may break down if you do! (not that the others are better, but at least they're trying to be more resilient).
  - scarface_74 3y ago
    You can bypass notarization easily and SIP. By opaque apps you mean everything is not open source? What do you want to be able to do “unsolder the memory from the chip”?
    - skydhash 3y ago
      Transparent apps for me means configurable up to the option of deleting them and replacing it for someone else. Instead of the tight coupling we have now in MacOS, I'd like to have federated applications bound by protocols instead of needing to update the whole system to add a single feature or fix a bug. I don't think you can delete stock apps without disabling SIP or something. I don't need to unsolder the chips, or do anything hardware wise, but I'd like to be able to use the hardware without the OS if needs be. That's why I say it's an appliance. It makes sense in terms of business, but it's not like the user is free to use the device how he wants.
      - scarface_74 3y ago
        What the heck are you talking about? What types of apps do you think you can’t find alternatives for on the Mac? And why wouldn’t you want SIP by default? This is what can happen when you disable SIP. https://community.gigperformer.com/t/be-careful-if-you-use-a-google-chrome-and-have-turned-off-sip/2591 https://community.gigperformer.com/t/be-careful-if-you-use-a... This was a known issue that Google later on fixed. Do you run your Linux box using root?
        skydhash 3y ago
        > What the heck are you talking about? What types of apps do you think you can’t find alternatives for on the Mac? It's not about finding alternatives. I did for a lot of mac's default. It's about replacing the default option. On Ubuntu, you can remove the default login screen and use KDE's panel alongside the i3 window manager. Because they're not tightly coupled together. Imagine if you could have replace the MacOs top bar, because it is a program that just answers to some IPC protocol? Or the window manager would expose windows and their placements so you could script a layout without the accessibility workaround. > And why wouldn’t you want SIP by default? I want it, which is why it's not disabled on my computers. But I'd like to set my own snapshot of what I meant to preserve instead of Apple's. > Do you run your Linux box using root? I don't but I'm always a real sudoer and I have the capability to do `su root` anytime. As I've said, it's about expert mode, not something on by default, but that can be and the system has been built to support it.
        thejazzman 3y ago
        With no disrespect to you, what you desire is literally the antithesis of Apple Steve loved talking about the intersection of humanities with technology. I think he'd proudly agree Apple computers are meant to be appliances
        skydhash 3y ago
        It’s more like something that would be nice to have because experts will always wants to build tools that will fit them, not just take something off the shelf. It’s like the kindle reader which are perfectly fine for reading books, but some people want the perfect experience (according to them). So they will jailbreak it and install koreader which is the expert mode of reading ebooks. I like Apple’s hardware. And I use the software. But it’s always a convenience for me, not something that fits how my mind would like to use it.
tarsinge 3y ago
If you want to spend your time being productive/in the zone that’s what you want. Your workflows are in the music or movie production or graphic/3D app, etc… Macs always were about running apps and doing all your work there. It’s like the difference between having a car for mechanics projects and racing vs actually needing to go from A to B reliably when you need it.

scarface_74 3y ago

So exactly how does the Mac keep you from running software you want to run?

skydhash 3y ago
- Notarization - Opaque apps - Locked down hardware - SIP,... You can go and find a solution for most of the shackles, but then you're likely to break down the whole system as it was not designed to be that way. The mac is fragile in terms of customizability. It's not that it's preventing running software, it's that it may break down if you do! (not that the others are better, but at least they're trying to be more resilient).
- scarface_74 3y ago
  You can bypass notarization easily and SIP. By opaque apps you mean everything is not open source? What do you want to be able to do “unsolder the memory from the chip”?
  - skydhash 3y ago
    Transparent apps for me means configurable up to the option of deleting them and replacing it for someone else. Instead of the tight coupling we have now in MacOS, I'd like to have federated applications bound by protocols instead of needing to update the whole system to add a single feature or fix a bug. I don't think you can delete stock apps without disabling SIP or something. I don't need to unsolder the chips, or do anything hardware wise, but I'd like to be able to use the hardware without the OS if needs be. That's why I say it's an appliance. It makes sense in terms of business, but it's not like the user is free to use the device how he wants.
    - scarface_74 3y ago
      What the heck are you talking about? What types of apps do you think you can’t find alternatives for on the Mac? And why wouldn’t you want SIP by default? This is what can happen when you disable SIP. https://community.gigperformer.com/t/be-careful-if-you-use-a-google-chrome-and-have-turned-off-sip/2591 https://community.gigperformer.com/t/be-careful-if-you-use-a... This was a known issue that Google later on fixed. Do you run your Linux box using root?
      - skydhash 3y ago
        > What the heck are you talking about? What types of apps do you think you can’t find alternatives for on the Mac? It's not about finding alternatives. I did for a lot of mac's default. It's about replacing the default option. On Ubuntu, you can remove the default login screen and use KDE's panel alongside the i3 window manager. Because they're not tightly coupled together. Imagine if you could have replace the MacOs top bar, because it is a program that just answers to some IPC protocol? Or the window manager would expose windows and their placements so you could script a layout without the accessibility workaround. > And why wouldn’t you want SIP by default? I want it, which is why it's not disabled on my computers. But I'd like to set my own snapshot of what I meant to preserve instead of Apple's. > Do you run your Linux box using root? I don't but I'm always a real sudoer and I have the capability to do `su root` anytime. As I've said, it's about expert mode, not something on by default, but that can be and the system has been built to support it.
        thejazzman 3y ago
        With no disrespect to you, what you desire is literally the antithesis of Apple Steve loved talking about the intersection of humanities with technology. I think he'd proudly agree Apple computers are meant to be appliances
        skydhash 3y ago
        It’s more like something that would be nice to have because experts will always wants to build tools that will fit them, not just take something off the shelf. It’s like the kindle reader which are perfectly fine for reading books, but some people want the perfect experience (according to them). So they will jailbreak it and install koreader which is the expert mode of reading ebooks. I like Apple’s hardware. And I use the software. But it’s always a convenience for me, not something that fits how my mind would like to use it.

tarsinge 3y ago

If you want to spend your time being productive/in the zone that’s what you want. Your workflows are in the music or movie production or graphic/3D app, etc… Macs always were about running apps and doing all your work there. It’s like the difference between having a car for mechanics projects and racing vs actually needing to go from A to B reliably when you need it.