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i can't be the only oldskool person on hacker news who knows not to click on unsubscribe buttons because it just identifies you as a legitimate email/mark... t

i can't be the only oldskool person on hacker news who knows not to click on unsubscribe buttons because it just identifies you as a legitimate email/mark... these are spammers, not cases where you ever actually signed up to some kind of legitimate newsletter or discussion group. to pretend good faith is your first mistake...

somehnguy 3y ago
That's the case for spam sent by illegitimate parties (actual spammers), but any real company (what OP is referring to) will respect the unsubscribe button because they're at risk of being sued otherwise. Clicking unsubscribe in those cases actually does work & doesn't put you at risk of anything.
- kevin_thibedeau 3y ago
  I get spam from legitimate companies who don't honor the unsubscribe links. The problem is that many of them use third-party services to handle the unsubscription server so you're feeding the data broker ecosystem with confirmation that you're an active address.
  - withinboredom 3y ago
    This is an irrational reason. When you click “mark as spam” the sender can configure the email so your email provider notifies them that you marked it as spam. (See email feedback loop). https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feedback_loop_(email) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feedback_loop_(email) Further, pixels can be embedded in the email so they can see when you open the email and how many times. The sender has every incentive to properly handle unsubscribe to avoid spam traps. If you get big enough, users WILL come sign up for your service with a known spam trap email. If your operations are as sloppy as you’re suggesting, your email sending capabilities go poof.
- greyface- 3y ago
  > they're at risk of being sued I think this risk is overstated. Individual spam recipients in the United States have no standing to sue under CAN-SPAM; only the FTC does, and there's a high bar to get their attention.
- ACow_Adonis 3y ago
  I find the venn diagram of spammers and "legitimate" companies increasingly overlaps and it's impossible to cleanly differentiate the two. my university spams me. i bought a torch from olight. they spam me. i get food deliveries. they spam me. i bought some tech. they spam me. i look for real estate they spam me. i get a delivery. they spam me. it's differentiating between the two that's unrealistic.
glenngillen 3y ago
I don’t think this is a legitimate concern any more. There’s basically zero value in “confirming” an email address is legitimate. Between all of the data breaches and various other ways to get actual email addresses this isn’t a problem. It’s also so cheap to send email there isn’t an operational cost where you need to optimise for sending only to know addresses. There is definitely a punitive cost for sending emails that are repeatedly marked as spam though. You also can’t just cycle IPs because a brand new IP with zero sender reputation is treated with almost as much suspicion by the big player as one that is known to be a spammer. It’s much better to give people an option to opt out, and to honour it. Most of the email sending providers (e.g., SendGrid, mailchimp, etc) force you to include the link and automatically block future sending to that address. Some will even provide you the option to provide a reason, where you can specify “I did not sign up for this” which in sufficient number will flag the sender account. I suspect the vast majority of cases where people unsubscribe but continue to get email is actually some incompetence from not having multiple disparate email systems sync back to a shared do not contact list (rather each system is maintaining its own). Click the unsubscribe button.
- ACow_Adonis 3y ago
  there's a line in the movie the incredibles where robert (the hero) is meeting with the designer (edna) of super suits to design him a new suit even though such activities are technically illegal. The dialogue goes something like this: robert: you know I'm retired from hero work. Edna:As am I, Robert, yet here we are. so now it's 2023. you're telling me it's now safe to click on unsubscribe to the spam emails. yet here we are. no, the strait forward response is to ignore and mark as spam any unsolicited emails you did not explicitly sign up for. don't try to interact through the desired or expected channels of any entity that spams you.
  - withinboredom 3y ago
    When you mark an email as spam, the mailing service emails the sender along with all the original headers. See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feedback_loop_(email) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feedback_loop_(email) Your reasons are not actually rational.
queuebert 3y ago
PINE used to have a Bounce command that was great for faking an invalid email address.

somehnguy 3y ago

That's the case for spam sent by illegitimate parties (actual spammers), but any real company (what OP is referring to) will respect the unsubscribe button because they're at risk of being sued otherwise. Clicking unsubscribe in those cases actually does work & doesn't put you at risk of anything.

kevin_thibedeau 3y ago
I get spam from legitimate companies who don't honor the unsubscribe links. The problem is that many of them use third-party services to handle the unsubscription server so you're feeding the data broker ecosystem with confirmation that you're an active address.
- withinboredom 3y ago
  This is an irrational reason. When you click “mark as spam” the sender can configure the email so your email provider notifies them that you marked it as spam. (See email feedback loop). https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feedback_loop_(email) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feedback_loop_(email) Further, pixels can be embedded in the email so they can see when you open the email and how many times. The sender has every incentive to properly handle unsubscribe to avoid spam traps. If you get big enough, users WILL come sign up for your service with a known spam trap email. If your operations are as sloppy as you’re suggesting, your email sending capabilities go poof.
greyface- 3y ago
> they're at risk of being sued I think this risk is overstated. Individual spam recipients in the United States have no standing to sue under CAN-SPAM; only the FTC does, and there's a high bar to get their attention.
ACow_Adonis 3y ago
I find the venn diagram of spammers and "legitimate" companies increasingly overlaps and it's impossible to cleanly differentiate the two. my university spams me. i bought a torch from olight. they spam me. i get food deliveries. they spam me. i bought some tech. they spam me. i look for real estate they spam me. i get a delivery. they spam me. it's differentiating between the two that's unrealistic.

glenngillen 3y ago

I don’t think this is a legitimate concern any more. There’s basically zero value in “confirming” an email address is legitimate. Between all of the data breaches and various other ways to get actual email addresses this isn’t a problem. It’s also so cheap to send email there isn’t an operational cost where you need to optimise for sending only to know addresses. There is definitely a punitive cost for sending emails that are repeatedly marked as spam though. You also can’t just cycle IPs because a brand new IP with zero sender reputation is treated with almost as much suspicion by the big player as one that is known to be a spammer. It’s much better to give people an option to opt out, and to honour it. Most of the email sending providers (e.g., SendGrid, mailchimp, etc) force you to include the link and automatically block future sending to that address. Some will even provide you the option to provide a reason, where you can specify “I did not sign up for this” which in sufficient number will flag the sender account. I suspect the vast majority of cases where people unsubscribe but continue to get email is actually some incompetence from not having multiple disparate email systems sync back to a shared do not contact list (rather each system is maintaining its own). Click the unsubscribe button.

ACow_Adonis 3y ago
there's a line in the movie the incredibles where robert (the hero) is meeting with the designer (edna) of super suits to design him a new suit even though such activities are technically illegal. The dialogue goes something like this: robert: you know I'm retired from hero work. Edna:As am I, Robert, yet here we are. so now it's 2023. you're telling me it's now safe to click on unsubscribe to the spam emails. yet here we are. no, the strait forward response is to ignore and mark as spam any unsolicited emails you did not explicitly sign up for. don't try to interact through the desired or expected channels of any entity that spams you.
- withinboredom 3y ago
  When you mark an email as spam, the mailing service emails the sender along with all the original headers. See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feedback_loop_(email) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feedback_loop_(email) Your reasons are not actually rational.

queuebert 3y ago

PINE used to have a Bounce command that was great for faking an invalid email address.