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There is such a thing as a well-behaved dog. I don't see the social benefit of enforcing every last little law on the books all the time. I think laws (the ki

There is such a thing as a well-behaved dog. I don't see the social benefit of enforcing every last little law on the books all the time. I think laws (the kind we're talking about, anyway) are best seen as a tool for maintaining public order. If police encounter something dangerous or immediately disorderly, they can express their reasons for intervening in terms of laws. If you run open headers on your car and cause an actual disturbance, you can be cited. When that relationship between order and law is inverted, the result is cops nickle-and-diming the populace when there was no actual underlying problem. The real application of law requires, you know ... nuance, discretion and situational awareness. That's the standard we should hold police to, not throwing every single page of the book at people all the time.

idiotsecant 3y ago
Ok, let's say your dog is well behaved. I think we can agree that lots of other people who think that their dog is well behaved actually have a dog that is potentially dangerous. How am I supposed to know by looking at you and your dog which it is? So now I get to feel in danger so that you can feel slightly more at home. How does that make sense? This is an excellent example of 'ridiculous government overreach' that actually makes perfect sense and some people just don't like.
- omginternets 3y ago
  >How does that make sense? In a word: discernment. If it's a miniature poodle, you can probably chill. If it's a big dog, it's probably worthwhile to enforce the law. It actually is a pretty good example of overreach insofar as you're advocating the removal of any judgement call from the equation. That is the surest way to build a relentless bureaucratic machine that makes everyone miserable without actually protecting anyone. The human in the loop is a feature, not a bug.
  - PH95VuimJjqBqy 3y ago
    because if there's one thing lapdogs are known for, it's a lack of violence. https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/shortcuts/2021/may/05/small-dogs-why-are-tiny-hounds-more-aggressive-than-big-ones https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/shortcuts/2021/may/... Now consider why it is you didn't know this?
    - omginternets 3y ago
      You are reasoning in terms of total elimination of risk. That is the source of our disagreement.
      - PH95VuimJjqBqy 3y ago
        I was pointing out your discernment of lapdogs is completely off base from reality, undermining your own point. You respond with a strawman.
- deadbeeves 3y ago
  If just seeing a dog without a leash is enough for you to feel in danger you probably shouldn't leave your home, let alone go to the park. That aside, you don't have a right to not feel in danger. You don't even have a right to not be in danger, though you do have a right to not be put in danger deliberately or by negligence.
  - Buttons840 3y ago
    If they feel threatened by dogs off leashes, that's them, let them live. It seems perfectly reasonable for such a person to go someplace where dogs must be on leashes.
    - deadbeeves 3y ago
      I'm not saying they shouldn't live, I'm saying that if off-leash dogs scare you and you don't want to be scared, you shouldn't be outside. Even if every last dog owner kept their dog on a leash at all times, there would still be some dogs without a leash, and all of them would be outside your house. I assume any person would understand that by the time they reach adulthood and either learn to deal with the fact that some dogs they run into won't have a leash, or they stop going outside if they can't deal with it. Stubbornly refusing to accept reality is childish.
      - PH95VuimJjqBqy 3y ago
        you've never actually been threatened by a dog off a leash have you?
        InSteady 3y ago
        I never understood why my high school buddy was so afraid of dogs. I would tease him sometimes because when he saw a large dog, even on a leash, he would edge to the other side of me and act nervous. He's a big and typically brave dude so it was out of character. Plus I just never had a concept of dogs as dangerous based on my childhood experiences. He eventually explained that he grew up in the poor neighborhood, where people keep large, poorly trained "guard dogs" that occasionally escape and roam the streets. As a child he had to evade roaming dogs several times, including one occasion where he genuinely believes he was running for his life. Apparently it fucked him up pretty badly. Poorly trained dogs (especially those that are bread for aggression) are no joke, even to full grown adults.
eightysixfour 3y ago
No, society works because we broadly trust that others will follow laws and that institutions will enforce the laws. It has been decided, by the public, that public spaces should not have off leash dogs in them because every dog is a “good dog” until it isn’t and someone or someone else’s animal pays the price. This is like saying it is okay for good drivers to drive through stop signs, because they’re there for the bad drivers. Just moronic. If you want to be somewhere where you can behave however you want, move away from other people. Pretty straightforward.
- omginternets 3y ago
  Literally nobody in this conversation is arguing that they should be able to do what they want.
  - eightysixfour 3y ago
    That is what arguments like this are: > In a word: discernment. If it's a miniature poodle, you can probably chill. If it's a big dog, it's probably worthwhile to enforce the law. Your whole argument is “judgement is an important component of the law” but what that leads to is differing judgements on what we can do. What individual is so far above reproach that they should have the right to discern whether the situation calls for applicability of a black and white law?
    - PH95VuimJjqBqy 3y ago
      watch and be amazed as I successfully do what you're implying can't be done. raping a 5 year old should be illegal and there is no grey there. Go on, explain to me why I'm wrong.
      - eightysixfour 3y ago
        That… isn’t what I said can’t be done. In fact it is the opposite. I said that we should not empower people to decide when laws are and aren’t applicable, because what they judge as applicable may not be the same as what others judge as applicable. That’s the whole point. Black and white laws are black and white, you can’t just decide stop signs don’t apply to you because you are a safe driver. You can’t just decide your dog is safe to be off leash in a place where the law requires it. Not sure why this is hard.
PH95VuimJjqBqy 3y ago
dogs have attacked their owners, this idea that owners somehow are the best judge of what their pet will or will not do is probably not a reliable one.

idiotsecant 3y ago

Ok, let's say your dog is well behaved. I think we can agree that lots of other people who think that their dog is well behaved actually have a dog that is potentially dangerous. How am I supposed to know by looking at you and your dog which it is? So now I get to feel in danger so that you can feel slightly more at home. How does that make sense? This is an excellent example of 'ridiculous government overreach' that actually makes perfect sense and some people just don't like.

omginternets 3y ago
>How does that make sense? In a word: discernment. If it's a miniature poodle, you can probably chill. If it's a big dog, it's probably worthwhile to enforce the law. It actually is a pretty good example of overreach insofar as you're advocating the removal of any judgement call from the equation. That is the surest way to build a relentless bureaucratic machine that makes everyone miserable without actually protecting anyone. The human in the loop is a feature, not a bug.
- PH95VuimJjqBqy 3y ago
  because if there's one thing lapdogs are known for, it's a lack of violence. https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/shortcuts/2021/may/05/small-dogs-why-are-tiny-hounds-more-aggressive-than-big-ones https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/shortcuts/2021/may/... Now consider why it is you didn't know this?
  - omginternets 3y ago
    You are reasoning in terms of total elimination of risk. That is the source of our disagreement.
    - PH95VuimJjqBqy 3y ago
      I was pointing out your discernment of lapdogs is completely off base from reality, undermining your own point. You respond with a strawman.
deadbeeves 3y ago
If just seeing a dog without a leash is enough for you to feel in danger you probably shouldn't leave your home, let alone go to the park. That aside, you don't have a right to not feel in danger. You don't even have a right to not be in danger, though you do have a right to not be put in danger deliberately or by negligence.
- Buttons840 3y ago
  If they feel threatened by dogs off leashes, that's them, let them live. It seems perfectly reasonable for such a person to go someplace where dogs must be on leashes.
  - deadbeeves 3y ago
    I'm not saying they shouldn't live, I'm saying that if off-leash dogs scare you and you don't want to be scared, you shouldn't be outside. Even if every last dog owner kept their dog on a leash at all times, there would still be some dogs without a leash, and all of them would be outside your house. I assume any person would understand that by the time they reach adulthood and either learn to deal with the fact that some dogs they run into won't have a leash, or they stop going outside if they can't deal with it. Stubbornly refusing to accept reality is childish.
    - PH95VuimJjqBqy 3y ago
      you've never actually been threatened by a dog off a leash have you?
      - InSteady 3y ago
        I never understood why my high school buddy was so afraid of dogs. I would tease him sometimes because when he saw a large dog, even on a leash, he would edge to the other side of me and act nervous. He's a big and typically brave dude so it was out of character. Plus I just never had a concept of dogs as dangerous based on my childhood experiences. He eventually explained that he grew up in the poor neighborhood, where people keep large, poorly trained "guard dogs" that occasionally escape and roam the streets. As a child he had to evade roaming dogs several times, including one occasion where he genuinely believes he was running for his life. Apparently it fucked him up pretty badly. Poorly trained dogs (especially those that are bread for aggression) are no joke, even to full grown adults.

eightysixfour 3y ago

No, society works because we broadly trust that others will follow laws and that institutions will enforce the laws. It has been decided, by the public, that public spaces should not have off leash dogs in them because every dog is a “good dog” until it isn’t and someone or someone else’s animal pays the price. This is like saying it is okay for good drivers to drive through stop signs, because they’re there for the bad drivers. Just moronic. If you want to be somewhere where you can behave however you want, move away from other people. Pretty straightforward.

omginternets 3y ago
Literally nobody in this conversation is arguing that they should be able to do what they want.
- eightysixfour 3y ago
  That is what arguments like this are: > In a word: discernment. If it's a miniature poodle, you can probably chill. If it's a big dog, it's probably worthwhile to enforce the law. Your whole argument is “judgement is an important component of the law” but what that leads to is differing judgements on what we can do. What individual is so far above reproach that they should have the right to discern whether the situation calls for applicability of a black and white law?
  - PH95VuimJjqBqy 3y ago
    watch and be amazed as I successfully do what you're implying can't be done. raping a 5 year old should be illegal and there is no grey there. Go on, explain to me why I'm wrong.
    - eightysixfour 3y ago
      That… isn’t what I said can’t be done. In fact it is the opposite. I said that we should not empower people to decide when laws are and aren’t applicable, because what they judge as applicable may not be the same as what others judge as applicable. That’s the whole point. Black and white laws are black and white, you can’t just decide stop signs don’t apply to you because you are a safe driver. You can’t just decide your dog is safe to be off leash in a place where the law requires it. Not sure why this is hard.

PH95VuimJjqBqy 3y ago

dogs have attacked their owners, this idea that owners somehow are the best judge of what their pet will or will not do is probably not a reliable one.