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This might be good news, but as it comes from Google and involves email centralisation, I’m sceptical. At MailPace we already enforce DKIM, it’s pretty basic s
by albertgoeswoof 3y ago
This might be good news, but as it comes from Google and involves email centralisation, I’m sceptical.
At MailPace we already enforce DKIM, it’s pretty basic stuff. But list-unsubscribe is optional for our senders.
We can make this a requirement and manage lists for senders who don’t / can’t implement a webhook to handle it (we already default to blocking resends to emails that hard bounce).
However I am curious how Google will track this. Just because the header is set, it doesn’t mean it’ll do anything. In fact it can be used by spammers to identify legit email addresses and spam them separately.
- j45 3y agoI'm wondering if they see enough gmail traffic receiving such an email that maybe they can infer how much funny business might be going on?
- pirsquare 3y agoWhy would you allow users to unsub from transactional emails?
- queuebert 3y agoBecause you're not evil?
- albertgoeswoof 3y agoBecause (according to this announcement) if you don't, Google will put you in the spam folder. Edit: I suppose it does say "unsubscribe from commercial email in one click". But it's hard to say exactly what they mean. They also don't define Bulk Senders - is that the domain or the sending SMTP server?
- evangow 3y agoThey defined bulk senders in the 3rd paragraph: "bulk senders — those who send more than 5,000 messages to Gmail addresses in one day"
- albertgoeswoof 3y ago> is that the domain or the sending SMTP server?
- noAnswer 3y agoLet's hope from what ever comes first, or people will start sending from 1.example.com, 2.example.com ...
- rbut 3y agoI'm having the same thoughts. On one of my SaaS apps workers receive details on their shifts via email. If I allow them to one-click unsubscribe, I know there will be many who do so accidentally, with no idea how to resubscribe. Currently they need to sign in and manage their contact methods in settings (email, SMS, etc). Thus they know how to re-enable it if they disable it. I can see many support requests from managers saying "X worker isn't getting emails". Sigh.
- toomuchtodo 3y agoI suppose the best you can do is indicate how to re-subscribe in the unsubscribe confirmation email and say, “you should save this email! Here are alternate channels to receive your schedule if needed.” Perhaps you could notify the manager when a user unsubscribes? Puts the ball in their court to notify the user (their employee) they aren’t going to get critical emails. Make sure any unsubscribes show up in a log available to your customer.
- kvakerok 3y agoYou can simply put two buttons on the email, one for unsubscribe, one for re-subscribe. If they unsub by accident they can simply pull the last email and re-sub. It's not rocket science.
- rbut 3y agoAFAIK Google shows you an unsubscribe button/link separate to the email and performs the POST request to your server. There's no option to ask Gmail to show a resubscribe button/link.
- wredue 3y agoOr, send an email saying “Hey. You unsubscribed. Here’s a link to resubscribe if you happen to want to!” Right after someone unsubs.
- albertgoeswoof 3y agoYou could also send them a reminder a few days later, just to be sure that they meant it. And then perhaps every week or so for good measure.
- TylerE 3y agoThe problem comes, as I know very well, is that when you have a common sounding email, all kinds of people use it for all kinds of things. I get dozens of transactional emails a week from stores multiple states away. A big part of why I’m stuck on/with gmail is that filtering redirects about 90% of those to spam.
- jsnell 3y ago> A big part of why I’m stuck on/with gmail is that filtering redirects about 90% of those to spam. That doesn't really make sense? If you used an address on your own domain, other people would be pretty unlikely to enter that email address instead of their own. The problem with misaddressed email should be limited to domains with really high username density; nobody else than the Gmails and Outlooks of the world need to solve the problem because nobody else also has the problem.
- TylerE 3y agoBecaus having used an address personally and professionally for close to 20 years, I can’t really abandon it, and I honestly get way too much important stuff to only go I. There once a month or so. If I forward all emails to the new address, I get buried under the avalanche.
- jsnell 3y agoWhy limit yourself to only either forwarding emails or to "check for important emails" once per month? For example, email clients generally allow you to use multiple accounts at the same time. Configure your client to read emails from both accounts at the same time, and any time an important email arrives at the legacy account try to update the sender. (I mean, I'm sure that xkcd.com/1172 applies, but still this seems like an odd thing to be blocked by.)
- avarun 3y agoHa, I knew it was gonna be the workflow one!
- tomjen3 3y agoBecause its better than me just sending it to the spam box. Or worse, not interacting with your service. At this point something as simple as ordering something online means I get 4-7 emails and then some growling "please rate us" shit. And if I am stupid enough to do so, but only rate it 4 our of 5, another "we are sorry, please tell us what we did wrong" email.
- mauriciob 3y agoWrong address is one reason. For example, I receive transactional emails from a US-based ISP for someone else and the only way to unsubscribe is calling their customer service line. I’m not even in the same country.
- amalcon 3y agoI get a number of these for some reason. If they don't let me unsubscribe, I just report it as spam. It's not perfect, but it's what little I can do.
- whstl 3y agoI still have a quite short firstname@gmail.com address, and those emails were unbearable about 10 years ago. Several times, the only alternative was resetting the the password and taking over "someone else's" account to then change the email to a disposable provider like Mailinator. Hostile? A bit, but after contacting services and complaining, nothing would get done anyway. I ended up changing email providers because of that.
- crazygringo 3y agoExactly, seriously -- I get monthly+ e-mails from a gym and a car dealership and some golf course because somebody else put in my e-mail. I contacted the customer support for all of them and they said they can't do anything about it. To change the customer's e-mail address, I need to prove I'm the customer, and obviously I have no idea who they are. So I gave up and implemented a Gmail filter in the end, but I definitely wish that parallel with the traditional unsubscribe, there was a way to say "this isn't that person's e-mail". Where I don't have to prove I'm the person, I just have to demonstrate I receive the e-mails.
- ska 3y agoThe best part is when they aren't in a language you understand, and the site doesn't have one available. I have in the past had very good data on how often a russian guy got a haircut.
- 3y ago
- airstrike 3y agoSomething something the customer is always right?
- tempnow987 3y agoSo they don't start getting blocked as spam? For transactional emails deliverability is often CRITICAL. Oddly, on the cash app thing, I have a very basic username and seem to constantly have folks sending me money, sometimes good amounts. I never use the app, and eventually I hope the money goes back if I don't collect it. More annoying on email but much less than it used to be - I think more systems require email verification now so a bit less common to get the misdirected order emails etc. But yes, if I can't unsubscribe - then I block and report spam - even if it looks like transactional email (some is a lead-in to a scam where they will refund you for the "bogus" purchase).
- knodi123 3y agoI got a really cool vanity email address, back in the early days of gmail. But the downside of that is 100s of goofball people around the world randomly guessing it when they want to put some bullshit value in a field on a web form. The worst was when my address got posted to to some indian jobs forum, under a title like "test job" - I got dozens of applications per hour for a few days. I had to make filters to block all email that included the words "bangalore", "delhi", or "hyderabad". Anyway, the job applications have died down, but I still get plenty of others for people who are creating accounts. I unsubscribe when I can, and "mark spam" when I can't.
- bokkeman 3y agoThis sounds like the Steve Wozniak story from his college and early Apple days. He was apparently an inveterate prankster, especially phone related. After starting Apple and gaining some influence in the tech world, he managed to secure a mobile phone with the number (888)888-8888 - something he'd desired for years but could only realise once the 888 area (mobile) code came into use. Well his life became a living hell - he'd receive calls at all hours, usually with only rustling or scraping sounds, sometimes breathing and the occasional gurgle. The penny finally dropped when he heard a stern motherly voice in the background of one of these calls shouting: "Put down that phone, Jimmy!" He realised that babies all over America were picking up push button telephones and hammering the most obvious button - the one right in the middle of the bottom row... He had to change his number because there was no way around this DDOS prank by The Universe.
- iamacyborg 3y agoYou wouldn’t, if they’re true transactional messages instead of poorly veiled marketing ones. Think of it the same way Canada’s anti spam law (CASL) works. https://emailkarma.net/2016/09/qa-transactional-emails-unsubscribes/ https://emailkarma.net/2016/09/qa-transactional-emails-unsub...
- dmitrygr 3y agoPerhaps I do not care to receive them? Why does a store allow me to say "no receipt please", but you think your transactional spam needs to reach me?
- OJFord 3y agoBecause I don't need or want: - confirmation of my order - my order has been despatched - my order is out for delivery - my order has been delivered to locker - reminder to collect from locker - my order has been collected from locker - feedback on customer support chat experience - my return label has been generated - reminder to return my item - my refund is processing That's Amazon, in case it's not obvious. I don't need any of that by email, I immediately archive it, and if I want to know I look in my account, not my email. I even have the app installed and notifying me with all of the same and more (I'm spared 'x stops away' by email).
- vntok 3y agoYou are evidently in a tiny tiny minority of people with very special needs. The vast majority of users want to get these notifications, and most want to have them sent by email because it is one of the most uniquitous channels along with SMS and allows the recipient to "keep living and check the message later on when the time is right" (contrary to a regular in-app notification). The vast majority of Amazon customers do not have its app installed. And those who do have the app can disable Amazon emails or create filters in their own mailbox, it's not exactly difficult.
- OJFord 3y ago> And those who do have the app can disable Amazon emails No you can't, that is the point that is being discussed.
- martijnvds 3y agoI get most of those twice, because the carrier is _also_ sending me "we received a package for you", "it is out for delivery" etc.
- michaelmior 3y ago> Just because the header is set, it doesn’t mean it’ll do anything. True, but I think when you're processing the volume of email that Gmail is, you'll have enough data to be able to infer whether the unsubscription was processed.
- rkagerer 3y agoAll it would take is one human to review the email, but sadly given Google's aversion to humans in the loop I predict it will be inferred by an algorithm and subject to false positives with no practical way to escalate for review.
- michaelmior 3y agoI think it would be pretty challenging to have a human in the loop at that scale. Although certainly in would be nice if there was a way to escalate.
- WirelessGigabit 3y agoSide-note: for list-unsubscribe, do you determine the subscriber's identity that needs to be unsubscribed based on the sender or the receiver (like <guid>@unsubscribe.service.com)? Reason I'm asking is Unsubscribe rarely works for me due to my catch-all not SENDING emails from the address it was received on. It sends it from my actual address. Very annoying.
- albertgoeswoof 3y agoThe RFC https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2369.txt https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2369.txt Section 3.2 is not specific on this - but the examples only show the To address, and no unique identifier beyond that, so it might not work out well for you for mailto list-unsubscribes. It also prefers mailto over https. If we build this as a mandatory feature at MailPace, we'll use an HTTPS webhook with a unique identifier for the email, so if you unsubscribe from a list sent via us, it will work for you.
- WirelessGigabit 3y agoI believe iOS & Outlook.com only support the mailto:.
- RockRobotRock 3y agoAddy.io formerly AnonAddy does a good job at that. FastMail also.
- CobrastanJorji 3y agoWhy is list-unsubscribe is optional for your senders?
- albertgoeswoof 3y agoIt's transactional email - so generally speaking it's not a subscription list that recipients are on per se. This is in line with the CAN SPAM guidance (although that is a US law it's good guidance to follow globally). Also it requires senders to actually implement it, which is not possible to confirm. Although we could add a catch all service that does this automatically, which I think we'll do.
- wl 3y agoAs someone who gets tons of transactional email I didn't sign up for (wrong address), please do implement your catch-all service and make unsubscribe mechanisms mandatory. If I can't stop it, I mark it as the spam it is, which can't be great for deliverability.
- liquidgecka 3y agoOh lordy this so much this. As a holder of a beloved 5 character gmail address that is a common first and last name let me tell you that the misdirected email I receive is insane and countless. Services with an reputable unsubscribe get unsubbed and then I moved on. Services with no way to unsubscribe get marked spam each and every single time. Services that do that are effectively dead to me because if they ever do send a legit email gmail will automatically flag and remove them for me and I can't help but believe (with some insider knowledge) that this also impacts deliverability to other gmail accounts.
- JimDabell 3y agoThere’s nothing to unsubscribe from if it’s transactional email. You aren’t on a mailing list. You can’t be removed from a non-existent list you aren’t on. Are you asking to be blacklisted from all future transactional email from a particular service? That’s something very different to being unsubscribed. You’re asking to be added to a list, permanently.
- keyle 3y ago> but as it comes from Google and involves email centralisation That's my concern as well. Ah well, we'll just mark them as arc=pass and sit back and relax.
- Silhouette 3y agoI'm cautious as well. We all hate the spam and dark patterns, and Google is a relatively responsible citizen of the email world in my experience so I hope this will be a positive step. However if email blocking becomes too aggressive then it can easily result in mails containing information that senders are literally required by law to provide to the recipient being silently dropped, which essentially means the mail service has caused the sender to unknowingly break the law. The penalties for not providing required information under consumer protection rules can be extremely serious in jurisdictions like the EU. And Joe Random can be a real customer who you are really required to provide with information but can still hit the "this is spam" button if they don't particularly care or want to see it so reading too much into self-reported spam flags is a bit of a slippery slope. Combine that with mandating one-click unsubscribe but possibly without recognising types of emails that again the subscriber literally can't legally not send (at least not without sending the same information to the same recipient some other way instead) and there could be some real danger here.
- wichert 3y ago> Just because the header is set, it doesn’t mean it’ll do anything But they can track proxy metrics for this. For example people using GMail's builtin unsubscribe feature more than once with the same unsubscribe link for different emails is a pretty good indicator the unsubscribe did not work.
- mnd999 3y agoYep, just another step towards “we only accept email from Yahoo and Microsoft and they only accept mail from us”.