3 ms·

>Where's the guillotine tweet? https://files.illinoispolicy.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/Screen-Shot-2020-08-31-at-11.19.13-AM.png https://files.illinoispoli

by robswc 3y ago

>Where's the guillotine tweet? https://files.illinoispolicy.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/Screen-Shot-2020-08-31-at-11.19.13-AM.png https://files.illinoispolicy.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/... >And this is a public sector union, they are not straight up advocating for revolutionary class war for crying out loud They say "we're terrified but completely in support of wherever this is going" when people set up a device used exclusively for beheading humans. Whatever it is, it is ridiculous and a prime example of how you'll have to fight a war on two fronts if you don't agree with the union. >I just want to see some experimentation and innovation in an industry that has an avowed commitment to such values Anyone is free to start a software co-op and or experiment with different methods. I could agree in theory, but in practice, experimentation isn't free. I have family from eastern Europe that are still recovering from the "experimentation" that went on in the USSR.

Apocryphon 3y ago
That tweet is very measured, mealy-mouthed millennial speak that's mildly approving. Social media account managers for activist groups have a tendency to amplify edginess, the heightening of passions is part of the job. But that sort of rhetoric is unlikely to be universal to all unions, and the point is if you don't like your union making such speak, you still have a voice to counteract it, just as you would if your company was engaged in a PR marketing campaign whose tenor you disagree with. > I have family from eastern Europe that are still recovering from the "experimentation" that went on in the USSR. We're talking about an industry that has been almost wholeheartedly scoffing at the idea of unions for decades. To suggest Kickstarter United is Finland Station is laughable. Agreed that software co-ops are something that should be attempted more. In fact, the presence of FOSS projects, hacker collectives, and the like would suggest that programmer self-governance is already popular in this industry. There is a very bottom-up, autonomy-focused culture in many aspects of software. Even the idea of quitting your pointy-headed boss to build your own startup is arguably in the same spirit. I'd go as far as saying that to attempt a software union is in the same spirit- as unionization has declined so much in the U.S. over past decades, let alone never been attempted in tech until recent years- it is an underdog, grassroots cause. Very far from the bureaucratic Kafka entity that anti-union critics like to invoke- this industry is so very far from such a leviathan! And remember, it was a labor union that ended the USSR's grip on Poland, leading to sweeping changes across the Eastern Bloc...
- robswc 3y ago
  >That's like very measured, mealy-mouthed millennial speak that's mildly approving Ok, well, we've gone from; "you're confused, that's not the actual messaging" to "they're only mildly approving of constructing a device to behead people they disagree with" >you still have a voice to counteract it I should not have to spend mental energy or time telling an (in your words) activist, edgy-millennial that encouraging people to build guillotines is not a good PR look and doesn't represent me. >just as you would if your company was engaged in a PR marketing campaign whose tenor you disagree with If you don't like your company you can leave. If there were only one or two unions for software devs, (like OP implies) then it would be inescapable. I don't disagree with the idea of unions in principal. I just feel they would be detrimental to software. The only reason start ups get off the ground is because people put their blood, sweat and tears into it. What is there to motivate co-op founders to put their blood, sweat and tears into a new co-op?
  - Apocryphon 3y ago
    > Ok, well, we've gone from; Yes? The parameters of the discussion have shifted, so I am responding accordingly. This isn't a debate, let alone a sports game; there are no goalposts to shift, simply points to be addressed, not scored. > I should not have to spend mental energy or time telling an (in your words) activist, edgy-millennial that encouraging people to build guillotines is not a good PR look and doesn't represent me. I can understand it's an additional annoyance, and may be a dealbreaker in your book. I respect that. It is my position that it is a regrettable trifle and not all that different from when one's company PR, or even execs, make regrettable public statements. An overcomeable difficulty. > If there were only one or two unions for software devs, (like OP implies) then it would be inescapable. Sure, but it's such a different state of affairs from reality to seem positively absurd as a phantasm. > What is there to motivate co-op founders to put their blood, sweat and tears into a new co-op? I don't know, why don't you ask the founders of the Mondragon Corporation, or even the Arizmendi Bakery that bears the founder's name? Specific to software, what motivates those who start FOSS projects, or open hackerspaces or makerspaces, or create content for freeCodeCamp? Seems like there is precedence for autonomous, self-governing enterprises in tech, and I doubt that those behind them do not put in blood, sweat, and tears.

by robswc 3y ago

Apocryphon 3y ago

That tweet is very measured, mealy-mouthed millennial speak that's mildly approving. Social media account managers for activist groups have a tendency to amplify edginess, the heightening of passions is part of the job. But that sort of rhetoric is unlikely to be universal to all unions, and the point is if you don't like your union making such speak, you still have a voice to counteract it, just as you would if your company was engaged in a PR marketing campaign whose tenor you disagree with. > I have family from eastern Europe that are still recovering from the "experimentation" that went on in the USSR. We're talking about an industry that has been almost wholeheartedly scoffing at the idea of unions for decades. To suggest Kickstarter United is Finland Station is laughable. Agreed that software co-ops are something that should be attempted more. In fact, the presence of FOSS projects, hacker collectives, and the like would suggest that programmer self-governance is already popular in this industry. There is a very bottom-up, autonomy-focused culture in many aspects of software. Even the idea of quitting your pointy-headed boss to build your own startup is arguably in the same spirit. I'd go as far as saying that to attempt a software union is in the same spirit- as unionization has declined so much in the U.S. over past decades, let alone never been attempted in tech until recent years- it is an underdog, grassroots cause. Very far from the bureaucratic Kafka entity that anti-union critics like to invoke- this industry is so very far from such a leviathan! And remember, it was a labor union that ended the USSR's grip on Poland, leading to sweeping changes across the Eastern Bloc...

robswc 3y ago
>That's like very measured, mealy-mouthed millennial speak that's mildly approving Ok, well, we've gone from; "you're confused, that's not the actual messaging" to "they're only mildly approving of constructing a device to behead people they disagree with" >you still have a voice to counteract it I should not have to spend mental energy or time telling an (in your words) activist, edgy-millennial that encouraging people to build guillotines is not a good PR look and doesn't represent me. >just as you would if your company was engaged in a PR marketing campaign whose tenor you disagree with If you don't like your company you can leave. If there were only one or two unions for software devs, (like OP implies) then it would be inescapable. I don't disagree with the idea of unions in principal. I just feel they would be detrimental to software. The only reason start ups get off the ground is because people put their blood, sweat and tears into it. What is there to motivate co-op founders to put their blood, sweat and tears into a new co-op?
- Apocryphon 3y ago
  > Ok, well, we've gone from; Yes? The parameters of the discussion have shifted, so I am responding accordingly. This isn't a debate, let alone a sports game; there are no goalposts to shift, simply points to be addressed, not scored. > I should not have to spend mental energy or time telling an (in your words) activist, edgy-millennial that encouraging people to build guillotines is not a good PR look and doesn't represent me. I can understand it's an additional annoyance, and may be a dealbreaker in your book. I respect that. It is my position that it is a regrettable trifle and not all that different from when one's company PR, or even execs, make regrettable public statements. An overcomeable difficulty. > If there were only one or two unions for software devs, (like OP implies) then it would be inescapable. Sure, but it's such a different state of affairs from reality to seem positively absurd as a phantasm. > What is there to motivate co-op founders to put their blood, sweat and tears into a new co-op? I don't know, why don't you ask the founders of the Mondragon Corporation, or even the Arizmendi Bakery that bears the founder's name? Specific to software, what motivates those who start FOSS projects, or open hackerspaces or makerspaces, or create content for freeCodeCamp? Seems like there is precedence for autonomous, self-governing enterprises in tech, and I doubt that those behind them do not put in blood, sweat, and tears.