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I think that "seem to accept authority happily" is exactly how it looks to a neuroatypical person. With emphasis on "SEEM". Autism and ADHD both bring a lack o

I think that "seem to accept authority happily" is exactly how it looks to a neuroatypical person. With emphasis on "SEEM". Autism and ADHD both bring a lack of executive control. A lack of executive control limits our ability to comply with demands, including the demands of authority. The demands of authority generally include following the dictates of authority, while convincing authority that you're happy to do so. People with poor executive control can only act this way out of desire. We have to really, really want to. And so a neurotypical person's ability to do what they should (regardless of how they feel) looks to us like something you're doing because you want to. No matter what the truth might be. Yes, your internal experience may be entirely different. But, particularly with autism, neuroatypical people are often not very good at judging internal experience from external appearance. And so we may be fooled by the appearance.

whatilearned 3y ago
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h0l0cube 3y ago
> Autism and ADHD both bring a lack of executive control It’s not this but what I’ve heard labeled as ‘integrity as an obstacle’^. Many neurodivergent people (myself included) are governed less by social norms and more by authenticity. Conforming is counter to their very beings, and grotesquely undesirable ^ I’d call it a strength, but it’s a matter of perspective
- m_fayer 3y ago
  I’ve had the experience of being a neurotypical partnered to someone with (well concealed) asd. That experience has left me instinctively wincing at the notions of integrity and authenticity. I now associate them with interpersonal and legal conflicts, professional upheaval, inappropriate “real talk”, putting out one fire after another. And every fire is accompanied by, “yes you were in the right, but tact, but choose your battles, but can we really afford the consequences?” I was always the one who was unprincipled, and exhausted.
  - JohnBooty 3y ago
    Yeah. I sometimes feel like those with ASD seemingly feel that they shouldn’t have to give a crap about others at all, since empathy is hard for them. It’s at least as toxic and harmful as neurotypicals expecting those on the ASD to magically “get it” and confirm to neurotypical expectations.
    - DoreenMichele 3y ago
      As a parent of two now adult special-needs kids: Most neurotypical people don't really care either and are frequently extremely abusive as a group to anyone different, a la Mean Girls. The best thing I did to prevent my kids from turning into awful people was pulled them out of school so they could not be roundly abused by dozens of people daily and blamed for it because of "being weird." Superficial empathy and actually being good and kind are not the same thing and plenty of people who can perform superficial empathy are horrible people who use their social skills abusively.
    - pseudalopex 3y ago
      Empathy isn't hard for autistic people. Understanding allistic people is. As it is hard for you to understand them.[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_empathy_problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_empathy_problem
      - JohnBooty 3y ago
        Well, I certainly support the idea of the autistic as differently-abled rather than fundamentally broken, and I think there's just a shortage of empathy in general.
  - h0l0cube 3y ago
    I think marital conflict of this intensity arises in absence of ASD too. And the usual caution goes when speaking about ASD, the individual differences are great. Even though many ASD find conforming antithetical to their will, there are also many high-maskers who make a sport of conforming. Many unwittingly as a survival instinct. Underneath, they're treading water. > And every fire is accompanied by, “yes you were in the right, but tact, but choose your battles, but can we really afford the consequences?” From as much as I've witnessed, this is a feature (and common plaint) of many relationships.
lawlessone 3y ago
Not sure it's an ADHD(confirmed) thing myself or some mild form of the above(has been suggested to me) I always found following some instructions hard, not because I disliked it but because I would genuinely misinterpret them, miss a word or get stuck at a point where a part of an instruction could be interpreted multiple ways, this was always awkward because then ruminate on if I should make a decision or ask for clarification. Biggest one I noticed last year in a temp retail job is when people asked me "have you done X?". I'd hear "are you working on X?" or "will you do x?" From the outside it didn't look great that I was apparently saying I finished X, when clearly X wasn't done yet or I was clearly in the middle of doing X. From the outside it just looked like I was blatantly lying, and sometimes it was easier to lean into that. Than try to explain there might issue related to condition some people don't believe is real, and that it wasn't at all in my interest to disclose. Once I made enough mistakes to know what was expected though I had no trouble.
- RationalDino 3y ago
  I wouldn't hazard a guess. But it is absolutely true that ADHD can go along with inattention when people are talking to you, which can cause misunderstandings. My daughter particularly struggles with that when she reads, and will often have to re-read a passage several times until she can pay enough attention to understand it. (The more boring the passage, the harder she finds it.)
  - lawlessone 3y ago
    That is probably what is happening . Before I knew what it was , friends , family and myself just called it zoning out. Made for very awkward work meetings when asked what I thought on something. I wish I could give some useful advice. But all I can really say STAY ON TOP IT. My big issues have been. What's interesting today is often boring tomorrow. Lateness. Anything even slightly bad will keep getting genuinely put off until "tomorrow" That goes for all aspects of life, bills, car maintenance. It doesn't matter that I have they money sitting there to pay a bill , I'll still sit on it until I'm told it's overdue. Or in the cars case the gear that's dodgy for year will no longer work. edit: i'll also mention avoid short form social media video. I think all the anti-tiktok stuff is overblown. But (just my opinion) it's ADHD kryptonyte.
mindslight 3y ago
> A lack of executive control limits our ability to comply with demands, including the demands of authority. The demands of authority generally include following the dictates of authority I'd say this framing is upside down. Lots of people can "demand" lots of things. The only thing that gives the demands of "authorities" any import is their possible consequences - they're only privileged pragmatically. Furthermore I wouldn't say that a brain that grants priority to someone else barking orders has "executive control" - in fact I'd say it lacks executive control, likely due to sustained abuse of being forced to act (comply) first and think later. I would say what makes "seem to accept authority happily" ring true is not the fact that most people straightforwardly comply. Rather it's that when someone does not comply, most people line up in support of the authority even when the authority is clearly wrong. This points to a dynamic of not merely pragmatically following authorities, but rather seemingly being in support of authorities for authority's sake.
- SanderNL 3y ago
  Look, if I have to give up my shit to get where I want I’ll damn well make sure you will too. If there is anything I hate more than following arbitrary rules it’s dealing with people that think they are above them. I think it’s less “supporting the paradigm” and more “if I am going down we are all going down here”.
  - mindslight 3y ago
    My original comment was going to reference the "crab bucket" phenomenon but I toned it down a bit. Whether such support is reasonable or not is highly dependent on the specific rule/topic under discussion, and some of them are certainly not reasonable. And often such times such discussions don't even center around rules per se, but rather whether someone was "respectful" enough to said authority figure on a personal level.
- RationalDino 3y ago
  Your reference to "barking orders" shows a major misunderstanding. The demands we face may not be simply barked orders. They may instead be reasonable requests to work on the tasks assigned in the sprint, rather than helping out a random coworker whenever the whim strikes. Or to work on a test during the allotted time so you can get a good grade. Both are demands, and both are problems for a person with poor executive control. You may well be right that a neurotypical person who simply follows barked orders is doing damage to their executive control. I have no opinion on that. I just know that doing so consistently requires more executive control than I have. That said, you have a point that I find it outrageous when people fall into ranks behind stupid authority. Particularly when I know that the people doing so should know better. I intellectually know what's going on. But my natural emotional response against it is pretty strong.

whatilearned 3y ago

[dead]

h0l0cube 3y ago

> Autism and ADHD both bring a lack of executive control It’s not this but what I’ve heard labeled as ‘integrity as an obstacle’^. Many neurodivergent people (myself included) are governed less by social norms and more by authenticity. Conforming is counter to their very beings, and grotesquely undesirable ^ I’d call it a strength, but it’s a matter of perspective

m_fayer 3y ago
I’ve had the experience of being a neurotypical partnered to someone with (well concealed) asd. That experience has left me instinctively wincing at the notions of integrity and authenticity. I now associate them with interpersonal and legal conflicts, professional upheaval, inappropriate “real talk”, putting out one fire after another. And every fire is accompanied by, “yes you were in the right, but tact, but choose your battles, but can we really afford the consequences?” I was always the one who was unprincipled, and exhausted.
- JohnBooty 3y ago
  Yeah. I sometimes feel like those with ASD seemingly feel that they shouldn’t have to give a crap about others at all, since empathy is hard for them. It’s at least as toxic and harmful as neurotypicals expecting those on the ASD to magically “get it” and confirm to neurotypical expectations.
  - DoreenMichele 3y ago
    As a parent of two now adult special-needs kids: Most neurotypical people don't really care either and are frequently extremely abusive as a group to anyone different, a la Mean Girls. The best thing I did to prevent my kids from turning into awful people was pulled them out of school so they could not be roundly abused by dozens of people daily and blamed for it because of "being weird." Superficial empathy and actually being good and kind are not the same thing and plenty of people who can perform superficial empathy are horrible people who use their social skills abusively.
  - pseudalopex 3y ago
    Empathy isn't hard for autistic people. Understanding allistic people is. As it is hard for you to understand them.[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_empathy_problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_empathy_problem
    - JohnBooty 3y ago
      Well, I certainly support the idea of the autistic as differently-abled rather than fundamentally broken, and I think there's just a shortage of empathy in general.
- h0l0cube 3y ago
  I think marital conflict of this intensity arises in absence of ASD too. And the usual caution goes when speaking about ASD, the individual differences are great. Even though many ASD find conforming antithetical to their will, there are also many high-maskers who make a sport of conforming. Many unwittingly as a survival instinct. Underneath, they're treading water. > And every fire is accompanied by, “yes you were in the right, but tact, but choose your battles, but can we really afford the consequences?” From as much as I've witnessed, this is a feature (and common plaint) of many relationships.

lawlessone 3y ago

Not sure it's an ADHD(confirmed) thing myself or some mild form of the above(has been suggested to me) I always found following some instructions hard, not because I disliked it but because I would genuinely misinterpret them, miss a word or get stuck at a point where a part of an instruction could be interpreted multiple ways, this was always awkward because then ruminate on if I should make a decision or ask for clarification. Biggest one I noticed last year in a temp retail job is when people asked me "have you done X?". I'd hear "are you working on X?" or "will you do x?" From the outside it didn't look great that I was apparently saying I finished X, when clearly X wasn't done yet or I was clearly in the middle of doing X. From the outside it just looked like I was blatantly lying, and sometimes it was easier to lean into that. Than try to explain there might issue related to condition some people don't believe is real, and that it wasn't at all in my interest to disclose. Once I made enough mistakes to know what was expected though I had no trouble.

RationalDino 3y ago
I wouldn't hazard a guess. But it is absolutely true that ADHD can go along with inattention when people are talking to you, which can cause misunderstandings. My daughter particularly struggles with that when she reads, and will often have to re-read a passage several times until she can pay enough attention to understand it. (The more boring the passage, the harder she finds it.)
- lawlessone 3y ago
  That is probably what is happening . Before I knew what it was , friends , family and myself just called it zoning out. Made for very awkward work meetings when asked what I thought on something. I wish I could give some useful advice. But all I can really say STAY ON TOP IT. My big issues have been. What's interesting today is often boring tomorrow. Lateness. Anything even slightly bad will keep getting genuinely put off until "tomorrow" That goes for all aspects of life, bills, car maintenance. It doesn't matter that I have they money sitting there to pay a bill , I'll still sit on it until I'm told it's overdue. Or in the cars case the gear that's dodgy for year will no longer work. edit: i'll also mention avoid short form social media video. I think all the anti-tiktok stuff is overblown. But (just my opinion) it's ADHD kryptonyte.

mindslight 3y ago

> A lack of executive control limits our ability to comply with demands, including the demands of authority. The demands of authority generally include following the dictates of authority I'd say this framing is upside down. Lots of people can "demand" lots of things. The only thing that gives the demands of "authorities" any import is their possible consequences - they're only privileged pragmatically. Furthermore I wouldn't say that a brain that grants priority to someone else barking orders has "executive control" - in fact I'd say it lacks executive control, likely due to sustained abuse of being forced to act (comply) first and think later. I would say what makes "seem to accept authority happily" ring true is not the fact that most people straightforwardly comply. Rather it's that when someone does not comply, most people line up in support of the authority even when the authority is clearly wrong. This points to a dynamic of not merely pragmatically following authorities, but rather seemingly being in support of authorities for authority's sake.

SanderNL 3y ago
Look, if I have to give up my shit to get where I want I’ll damn well make sure you will too. If there is anything I hate more than following arbitrary rules it’s dealing with people that think they are above them. I think it’s less “supporting the paradigm” and more “if I am going down we are all going down here”.
- mindslight 3y ago
  My original comment was going to reference the "crab bucket" phenomenon but I toned it down a bit. Whether such support is reasonable or not is highly dependent on the specific rule/topic under discussion, and some of them are certainly not reasonable. And often such times such discussions don't even center around rules per se, but rather whether someone was "respectful" enough to said authority figure on a personal level.
RationalDino 3y ago
Your reference to "barking orders" shows a major misunderstanding. The demands we face may not be simply barked orders. They may instead be reasonable requests to work on the tasks assigned in the sprint, rather than helping out a random coworker whenever the whim strikes. Or to work on a test during the allotted time so you can get a good grade. Both are demands, and both are problems for a person with poor executive control. You may well be right that a neurotypical person who simply follows barked orders is doing damage to their executive control. I have no opinion on that. I just know that doing so consistently requires more executive control than I have. That said, you have a point that I find it outrageous when people fall into ranks behind stupid authority. Particularly when I know that the people doing so should know better. I intellectually know what's going on. But my natural emotional response against it is pretty strong.