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As someone who is non-neurotypical, it's not authority I have a problem with, it's arbitrary rules. The extent to which authority is heavy handed in enforcing t

As someone who is non-neurotypical, it's not authority I have a problem with, it's arbitrary rules. The extent to which authority is heavy handed in enforcing the rules is the extent I have issues with authority. A big contributor to my divorce was my wife's objection to me not following the rules. She became an authority to me. I don't think I need to go into the senseless rules that govern our lives and social interactions, because the 'rules and order' people won't see them and those who know what I'm talking about already know.

deleted 3y ago
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Loughla 3y ago
I learned early in my life that passing as typical was important. Learning to pass is all about learning which arbitrary social constructs people value personally. You can learn that by paying attention to their mannerisms. You can then tailor your behaviors to that person. It also helps to establish a reputation as a boundary pusher who will maliciously comply with stupid rules. Higher education is a great field to work in, because everyone expects a certain amount of that sort of thing from you anyways. Right or wrong it has kept me gainfully employed for decades. Ethics and personal identity are very funny things when you have to eat.
- MichaelZuo 3y ago
  > arbitrary social constructs people value personally Can you list a few examples? I've never encountered a bonafide example before on HN that did not serve at least some purpose(s)/benefit some group(s)/etc..., after a careful analysis. So I'm a bit skeptical as to the claim.
  - user_7832 3y ago
    Not the person you're replying to, but I think they're referring to situations similar to the "classic" case - an inquisitive student in class may learn it's "better" to keep quiet in presence of an unreasonable/angry teacher, than to ask questions. A neurotypical kid might quickly pick up that asking questions get you scolded. Or worse, saying the teacher is wrong gives you detention. A neurodivergent kid may fail to understand that these actions hurt the teacher's ego. (Teacher can be replaced by parent/adult). All this leads to masking.
    - MichaelZuo 3y ago
      Yes but those 'social constructs' did not develop arbitrarily or randomly. In fact there is so much amateur speculation into the likely causes behind their development, the beneficiaries, etc., that such writings occupy thousands of corners spread across the internet. It's difficult to imagine any 18 year old with internet access in the last decade or two could even have avoided encountering any mention of it.
  - Loughla 3y ago
    My least favorite example is the classic, "and what do you do?" Yes, it's a place filler nothing question for some people. BUT For others it's a very clear indicator of worth and status, which are important to them. Both groups are exceedingly put off when you answer honestly with, "my work does not define who I am." Arbitrary social construct that people take seriously. So you learn who is using it as a Dick measuring contest and which are just filling space. The first you engage aggressively with and the second you change the subject to them or their family or whatever else they are interested in.
    - MichaelZuo 3y ago
      This doesn't seem arbitrary at all? Like you said, it's used as an indicator.
      - Loughla 3y ago
        I think maybe you and I have a difference in what 'arbitrary' means.
        MichaelZuo 3y ago
        What is your belief on the meaning of 'arbitrary social constructs'?
- itronitron 3y ago
  >> It also helps to establish a reputation as a boundary pusher who will maliciously comply with stupid rules. That, and it's also good to know that every boundary has gaps, either through policy, implementation, or both. When you find a useful gap there is no point in drawing attention to it since you are just following the rules.
guntherhermann 3y ago
I'm not autistic, and I have the same issue with arbitrary rules, airports or other security theatre are a classic example. I'm sure there are many people out there that feel the same way
- labrador 3y ago
  Security theater is one of those things everyone is familiar with. I'm talking about the more subtle rules. I'm a fan of "Curb Your Enthusiasm" because Larry David is always rebelling against these rules or making up new rules that actually make sense ("chat and cut is not allowed"). To give you an example from the show that actually happened to me, I went into the men's room. The stalls were full so I used the wheel chair stall. I didn't see anyone in a wheel chair in the building. I got yelled at by someone, a 'rules and order' person, who claimed I was never under any circumstances to use the wheel chair stall if I wasn't in a wheel chair, which is stupid. There are a lot of rules like that and neurotypical people just accept, but I can't.
  - Jtsummers 3y ago
    Non-wheelchair-bound, neurotypical people happily use those stalls too because it's not an actual rule (at least anywhere I've ever been). At best, if an actual wheelchair-bound person shows up in line you let them use it first because that's courteous. It's also often used by people with small kids because it affords room for them to go in there with the kids to make sure they don't make a mess or help them clean themselves (if they aren't quite potty trained yet). Neurotypical people are as aware as anyone else that many (if not most) rules are arbitrary and not all rules make sense and that not all people insisting a rule exists are worth listening to.
    - labrador 3y ago
      Thanks for this. It's hard for me to distinquish between the spirit of a rule and someone telling me I'm not following the rule because I'm not following their interpretation of the rule. I know I don't think like other people so if someone tells me I'm not thinking like other people I tend to believe them. My intuition tells me I'm doing ok, but need to improve my perception of when a person is being unreasonable and let it go.
klodolph 3y ago
> I don't think I need to go into the senseless rules that govern our lives and social interactions, because the 'rules and order' people won't see them Maybe those from our own culture. There are “rules and order” people in every culture, but the rules are different. One other effect of this fact is that we (e.g. me) recognize who the rules-and-order people are based on how they follow our society’s rules. In another culture, we may peg someone as a free-thinker, only to find out that they are very conservative, just conservative in a way we don’t recognize. We have to recognize what rules people care about in a culture before we can really identify which people care about “the rules”.
- MrRolleyes 3y ago
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alphabetag3ncy 3y ago
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deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

Loughla 3y ago

I learned early in my life that passing as typical was important. Learning to pass is all about learning which arbitrary social constructs people value personally. You can learn that by paying attention to their mannerisms. You can then tailor your behaviors to that person. It also helps to establish a reputation as a boundary pusher who will maliciously comply with stupid rules. Higher education is a great field to work in, because everyone expects a certain amount of that sort of thing from you anyways. Right or wrong it has kept me gainfully employed for decades. Ethics and personal identity are very funny things when you have to eat.

MichaelZuo 3y ago
> arbitrary social constructs people value personally Can you list a few examples? I've never encountered a bonafide example before on HN that did not serve at least some purpose(s)/benefit some group(s)/etc..., after a careful analysis. So I'm a bit skeptical as to the claim.
- user_7832 3y ago
  Not the person you're replying to, but I think they're referring to situations similar to the "classic" case - an inquisitive student in class may learn it's "better" to keep quiet in presence of an unreasonable/angry teacher, than to ask questions. A neurotypical kid might quickly pick up that asking questions get you scolded. Or worse, saying the teacher is wrong gives you detention. A neurodivergent kid may fail to understand that these actions hurt the teacher's ego. (Teacher can be replaced by parent/adult). All this leads to masking.
  - MichaelZuo 3y ago
    Yes but those 'social constructs' did not develop arbitrarily or randomly. In fact there is so much amateur speculation into the likely causes behind their development, the beneficiaries, etc., that such writings occupy thousands of corners spread across the internet. It's difficult to imagine any 18 year old with internet access in the last decade or two could even have avoided encountering any mention of it.
- Loughla 3y ago
  My least favorite example is the classic, "and what do you do?" Yes, it's a place filler nothing question for some people. BUT For others it's a very clear indicator of worth and status, which are important to them. Both groups are exceedingly put off when you answer honestly with, "my work does not define who I am." Arbitrary social construct that people take seriously. So you learn who is using it as a Dick measuring contest and which are just filling space. The first you engage aggressively with and the second you change the subject to them or their family or whatever else they are interested in.
  - MichaelZuo 3y ago
    This doesn't seem arbitrary at all? Like you said, it's used as an indicator.
    - Loughla 3y ago
      I think maybe you and I have a difference in what 'arbitrary' means.
      - MichaelZuo 3y ago
        What is your belief on the meaning of 'arbitrary social constructs'?
itronitron 3y ago
>> It also helps to establish a reputation as a boundary pusher who will maliciously comply with stupid rules. That, and it's also good to know that every boundary has gaps, either through policy, implementation, or both. When you find a useful gap there is no point in drawing attention to it since you are just following the rules.

guntherhermann 3y ago

I'm not autistic, and I have the same issue with arbitrary rules, airports or other security theatre are a classic example. I'm sure there are many people out there that feel the same way

labrador 3y ago
Security theater is one of those things everyone is familiar with. I'm talking about the more subtle rules. I'm a fan of "Curb Your Enthusiasm" because Larry David is always rebelling against these rules or making up new rules that actually make sense ("chat and cut is not allowed"). To give you an example from the show that actually happened to me, I went into the men's room. The stalls were full so I used the wheel chair stall. I didn't see anyone in a wheel chair in the building. I got yelled at by someone, a 'rules and order' person, who claimed I was never under any circumstances to use the wheel chair stall if I wasn't in a wheel chair, which is stupid. There are a lot of rules like that and neurotypical people just accept, but I can't.
- Jtsummers 3y ago
  Non-wheelchair-bound, neurotypical people happily use those stalls too because it's not an actual rule (at least anywhere I've ever been). At best, if an actual wheelchair-bound person shows up in line you let them use it first because that's courteous. It's also often used by people with small kids because it affords room for them to go in there with the kids to make sure they don't make a mess or help them clean themselves (if they aren't quite potty trained yet). Neurotypical people are as aware as anyone else that many (if not most) rules are arbitrary and not all rules make sense and that not all people insisting a rule exists are worth listening to.
  - labrador 3y ago
    Thanks for this. It's hard for me to distinquish between the spirit of a rule and someone telling me I'm not following the rule because I'm not following their interpretation of the rule. I know I don't think like other people so if someone tells me I'm not thinking like other people I tend to believe them. My intuition tells me I'm doing ok, but need to improve my perception of when a person is being unreasonable and let it go.

klodolph 3y ago

> I don't think I need to go into the senseless rules that govern our lives and social interactions, because the 'rules and order' people won't see them Maybe those from our own culture. There are “rules and order” people in every culture, but the rules are different. One other effect of this fact is that we (e.g. me) recognize who the rules-and-order people are based on how they follow our society’s rules. In another culture, we may peg someone as a free-thinker, only to find out that they are very conservative, just conservative in a way we don’t recognize. We have to recognize what rules people care about in a culture before we can really identify which people care about “the rules”.

MrRolleyes 3y ago
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alphabetag3ncy 3y ago

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