5 ms·

I suspect the author meant something more like, "neurotypical people live contented lives holding the belief that arbitrary authority actually exists." But I ca

I suspect the author meant something more like, "neurotypical people live contented lives holding the belief that arbitrary authority actually exists." But I can't truly speak for them. Even before I fully reasoned it out, growing up I always knew that arbitrary authority doesn't exist for me. Sure a SME should be given more weight discussing their subject, and a parent understands dangers of the world that their young child literally can't comprehend. But many of us experienced "listen to me because I said so" as children, and continue to experience that in school and into adulthood in the workplace. It's meaningless, but many neurotypical people neither notice that it's wrong or understand why it's wrong, perhaps because their brains aren't wired a way to unconsciously detect those red flags.

avgcorrection 3y ago
I don’t understand how to interpret this comment. Are you neurotypical or not?
- digging 3y ago
  No
dEnigma 3y ago
I don't like this trend of using the label "neurotypical" to describe one's idea of the most boring, unimaginative person one can think of, and then applying it to pretty much everyone that isn't on the spectrum. "Neurotypical" people range from absolute rebels who reject any kind of authority to people happily working for and supporting a fascist regime, and then everything in-between. There is no less of a variety of opinion and thought in them than in "neurodivergent" people.
- digging 3y ago
  Well, ok, but that's not what I'm doing. I'm using neurotypical to describe people who don't have neurodivergent brains. I think there's arguments that there is no "neurotypical" at all, but it should be clear that when we're discussing autistic people, everyone who's not autistic is in the "other" group.
  - RHSman2 3y ago
    Isn’t it called a spectrum for a reason?
    - digging 3y ago
      What?
    - chownie 3y ago
      If the autism spectrum were represented as an input paradigm it would be a color picker rather than a number range. It is not from 0 autism to 100 autism, it's more like a combination of sensory processing, language, social communication and executive functioning differences.
  - soco 3y ago
    Either way, there are many other ways to "handle with" authority, notice also my quotes. These are even on different axes: understanding or not there's something going on, accepting or not what's going on, agreeing or not with what's going on, acting or not on what's going on... anything you simplify there between the two groups, will be wrong.
    - digging 3y ago
      I don't know if I'm being argued with/downvoted because I said "all neurotypical people are this way" (which I did not, explicitly) or for some other reason. None of this thread makes sense to me.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
JohnBooty 3y ago
Context: I've never been formally diagnosed, but based on informally discussing things with therapists and various self-assessments it seems pretty likely to me that I'm somewhat on the spectrum, probably on the shallow end. Maybe this means I understand both the neurotypical and neurodivergent worlds a bit, or maybe it means I understand neither. But many of us experienced "listen to me because I said so" as children, and continue to experience that in school and into adulthood in the workplace. It's meaningless, but many neurotypical people neither notice that it's wrong or understand why it's wrong, perhaps because their brains aren't wired a way to unconsciously detect those red flags. I feel extremely confident in saying that everybody hates this. Honestly, it might be the first thing I've been certain of all day long. I'm less confident in this, but: I certainly also think it's possible that many on the spectrum underrate how much literally everybody hates because-I-said-so's. I know one other thing. If a person is in the upper N% of intelligence, "gifted" if you will, they will have a natural curiosity about how things work, and have probably improved many things in the past, and will naturally tend to chafe at doing things in sub-optimal ways for unexplained reasons, and will therefore tend to hate "because I said so's" even more than most people. Does autism sort of act like a force multiplier when combined with that trait? Maybe. Probably? I mean, one of the traits of autism is that we tend to need our own ways of doing things. growing up I always knew that arbitrary authority doesn't exist for me I think one possible issue is that neurodivergents can't understand the reasons why neurotypicals (sometimes) like authority, or seem to like it. Imagine Bubba, a guy with USA and police and military stickers all over his pickup truck. This guy just loves the imaginary absolute authority of the USA, right? It's probably more complicated than that. In the micro sense of things, he probably hates being told what to do just like the rest of us. He probably grumbles when paying taxes just like the rest of us. But he probably likes to imagine the USA as a superpower that will crush its/his perceived enemies. But maybe Bob just kind of wants an identity to cling to. Also maybe he and/or many of his friends and relatives are in the military, possibly because it's one of the few stable career paths for people without higher education, and he would like to think there is some kind of positive thing being done. Maybe he's sending a dog-whistle signal to "liberals" or immigrants. Or hell, maybe he does just have pride in the cool things that do happen in America. Maybe he's an American history buff! But for all of the complex factors in Bubba's enthusiasm for America, actually doing what America tells him to do probably isn't the part that delights him.
ffgjgf1 3y ago
> It's meaningless, but many neurotypical people neither notice that it's wrong or understand why it's wrong, That’s a very bold claim and I don’t think it’s that accurate. Rather maybe “neurotipical” are less willing to challenge “authority” when they have nothing to gain from that.
- digging 3y ago
  You know, that may be true. In my experience most NT friends/colleagues don't seem to think about it all but it may be they're simply brushing it off, whereas instead it's unignorable to me.
  - lamontcg 3y ago
    Or they realize its not a productive strategy. I'm usually the first to notice and verbalize that someone with authority is a useless sociopath and things are going to turn out badly. This is never a remotely optimal strategy. Can't tell if other people see it, but realize they can't do anything about it and that talking about it is only going to be negative, or if they're really unaware (or just keep it in a "subconscious" unexamined box because they know that opening it up won't be useful). I'm generally shit at politics, although from time to time I've been able to figure out how to fake it.
    - digging 3y ago
      > This is never a remotely optimal strategy. I'm sorry that's been your experience, but I can't relate.
      - JohnBooty 3y ago
        You've... had lots of positive experiences promptly deciding that your leaders are "useless sociopaths" before anybody else has, and being very verbal about it?
hotnfresh 3y ago
> But many of us experienced "listen to me because I said so" as children, and continue to experience that in school and into adulthood in the workplace. It's meaningless, but many neurotypical people neither notice that it's wrong or understand why it's wrong This would not be perhaps the most-universal example of arbitrary authority, played with in countless pieces of mainstream media, if neurotypicals were as you suppose they are. I think you need to go back to the drawing board on this one.
- digging 3y ago
  Ok, somebody else explain why neurotypical people are content to obey arbitrary authority when they don't have to. I surely shouldn't have included that bit of speculation because all the replies to my comment have nothing to do with the actual point of the comment.
  - roughly 3y ago
    > are content to obey arbitrary authority when they don't have to. There’s two assumptions in this sentence that are frequently unwarranted. Additionally, sometimes it’s both easier and less costly to let certain things go. This is may be one of the areas of, well, neurodivergence: “it’s going to be a pain in the ass to fight whatever the hell this is, and I don’t care enough to do it.”
  - hotnfresh 3y ago
    The most likely explanation, I think, is that they dole out their fucks-given very differently than you.
  - RoyalHenOil 3y ago
    Consider the possibility that, as someone who is not neurotypical, you may not be accurately reading the contentment level of people who are neurotypical.
  - Jtsummers 3y ago
    "Content" is an assumption on your part. Higher tolerance for bullshit is also a plausible explanation. Or a difference in emotional intelligence and the corresponding understanding of (and willingness to play) the political game to get through the day. I'm not "content" with my management, but I know it's temporary and that I don't want to be unemployed in the interim and my pay is good enough that I'm not ready to nope out of here (if the pay was worse, or my fu funds weren't spent a couple years ago and not yet recovered, it would be a different situation).
fallingknife 3y ago
> and a parent understands dangers of the world that their young child literally can't comprehend As an adult I find that my perception of danger was actually much more correct as a child than the adults around me. They were, and are, paranoid and driven by moral panics. For some reason they were unable to comprehend that me walking a mile across an upper middle class suburb at 12 years old was perfectly safe, but I was. They feared edge case dangers like pedophiles and school shootings while us children made jokes about them. When there were a handful of shark attacks on the east coast and it made the news, the school banned students from swimming in the ocean on school trips. Driving for hours on the interstate was, of course, deemed safe as always.
ska 3y ago
To me, this sometimes seems like a first order response to a 2nd (or higher) order problem. Some neurodivergent people I've worked through this with have definitely unconsciously/consciously detected "red flags" and responded to them, but their modelling of what was going on was clearly reductive and sometimes obviously incorrect. I'm in no way suggesting it's universally true, but it's happened enough times to feel like it's likely, if that makes sense? Sometimes neurotypical people are seeing exactly the same data, but interpreting it differently.

avgcorrection 3y ago

I don’t understand how to interpret this comment. Are you neurotypical or not?

digging 3y ago
No

dEnigma 3y ago

I don't like this trend of using the label "neurotypical" to describe one's idea of the most boring, unimaginative person one can think of, and then applying it to pretty much everyone that isn't on the spectrum. "Neurotypical" people range from absolute rebels who reject any kind of authority to people happily working for and supporting a fascist regime, and then everything in-between. There is no less of a variety of opinion and thought in them than in "neurodivergent" people.

digging 3y ago
Well, ok, but that's not what I'm doing. I'm using neurotypical to describe people who don't have neurodivergent brains. I think there's arguments that there is no "neurotypical" at all, but it should be clear that when we're discussing autistic people, everyone who's not autistic is in the "other" group.
- RHSman2 3y ago
  Isn’t it called a spectrum for a reason?
  - digging 3y ago
    What?
  - chownie 3y ago
    If the autism spectrum were represented as an input paradigm it would be a color picker rather than a number range. It is not from 0 autism to 100 autism, it's more like a combination of sensory processing, language, social communication and executive functioning differences.
- soco 3y ago
  Either way, there are many other ways to "handle with" authority, notice also my quotes. These are even on different axes: understanding or not there's something going on, accepting or not what's going on, agreeing or not with what's going on, acting or not on what's going on... anything you simplify there between the two groups, will be wrong.
  - digging 3y ago
    I don't know if I'm being argued with/downvoted because I said "all neurotypical people are this way" (which I did not, explicitly) or for some other reason. None of this thread makes sense to me.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

JohnBooty 3y ago

Context: I've never been formally diagnosed, but based on informally discussing things with therapists and various self-assessments it seems pretty likely to me that I'm somewhat on the spectrum, probably on the shallow end. Maybe this means I understand both the neurotypical and neurodivergent worlds a bit, or maybe it means I understand neither. But many of us experienced "listen to me because I said so" as children, and continue to experience that in school and into adulthood in the workplace. It's meaningless, but many neurotypical people neither notice that it's wrong or understand why it's wrong, perhaps because their brains aren't wired a way to unconsciously detect those red flags. I feel extremely confident in saying that everybody hates this. Honestly, it might be the first thing I've been certain of all day long. I'm less confident in this, but: I certainly also think it's possible that many on the spectrum underrate how much literally everybody hates because-I-said-so's. I know one other thing. If a person is in the upper N% of intelligence, "gifted" if you will, they will have a natural curiosity about how things work, and have probably improved many things in the past, and will naturally tend to chafe at doing things in sub-optimal ways for unexplained reasons, and will therefore tend to hate "because I said so's" even more than most people. Does autism sort of act like a force multiplier when combined with that trait? Maybe. Probably? I mean, one of the traits of autism is that we tend to need our own ways of doing things. growing up I always knew that arbitrary authority doesn't exist for me I think one possible issue is that neurodivergents can't understand the reasons why neurotypicals (sometimes) like authority, or seem to like it. Imagine Bubba, a guy with USA and police and military stickers all over his pickup truck. This guy just loves the imaginary absolute authority of the USA, right? It's probably more complicated than that. In the micro sense of things, he probably hates being told what to do just like the rest of us. He probably grumbles when paying taxes just like the rest of us. But he probably likes to imagine the USA as a superpower that will crush its/his perceived enemies. But maybe Bob just kind of wants an identity to cling to. Also maybe he and/or many of his friends and relatives are in the military, possibly because it's one of the few stable career paths for people without higher education, and he would like to think there is some kind of positive thing being done. Maybe he's sending a dog-whistle signal to "liberals" or immigrants. Or hell, maybe he does just have pride in the cool things that do happen in America. Maybe he's an American history buff! But for all of the complex factors in Bubba's enthusiasm for America, actually doing what America tells him to do probably isn't the part that delights him.

ffgjgf1 3y ago

> It's meaningless, but many neurotypical people neither notice that it's wrong or understand why it's wrong, That’s a very bold claim and I don’t think it’s that accurate. Rather maybe “neurotipical” are less willing to challenge “authority” when they have nothing to gain from that.

digging 3y ago
You know, that may be true. In my experience most NT friends/colleagues don't seem to think about it all but it may be they're simply brushing it off, whereas instead it's unignorable to me.
- lamontcg 3y ago
  Or they realize its not a productive strategy. I'm usually the first to notice and verbalize that someone with authority is a useless sociopath and things are going to turn out badly. This is never a remotely optimal strategy. Can't tell if other people see it, but realize they can't do anything about it and that talking about it is only going to be negative, or if they're really unaware (or just keep it in a "subconscious" unexamined box because they know that opening it up won't be useful). I'm generally shit at politics, although from time to time I've been able to figure out how to fake it.
  - digging 3y ago
    > This is never a remotely optimal strategy. I'm sorry that's been your experience, but I can't relate.
    - JohnBooty 3y ago
      You've... had lots of positive experiences promptly deciding that your leaders are "useless sociopaths" before anybody else has, and being very verbal about it?

hotnfresh 3y ago

> But many of us experienced "listen to me because I said so" as children, and continue to experience that in school and into adulthood in the workplace. It's meaningless, but many neurotypical people neither notice that it's wrong or understand why it's wrong This would not be perhaps the most-universal example of arbitrary authority, played with in countless pieces of mainstream media, if neurotypicals were as you suppose they are. I think you need to go back to the drawing board on this one.

digging 3y ago
Ok, somebody else explain why neurotypical people are content to obey arbitrary authority when they don't have to. I surely shouldn't have included that bit of speculation because all the replies to my comment have nothing to do with the actual point of the comment.
- roughly 3y ago
  > are content to obey arbitrary authority when they don't have to. There’s two assumptions in this sentence that are frequently unwarranted. Additionally, sometimes it’s both easier and less costly to let certain things go. This is may be one of the areas of, well, neurodivergence: “it’s going to be a pain in the ass to fight whatever the hell this is, and I don’t care enough to do it.”
- hotnfresh 3y ago
  The most likely explanation, I think, is that they dole out their fucks-given very differently than you.
- RoyalHenOil 3y ago
  Consider the possibility that, as someone who is not neurotypical, you may not be accurately reading the contentment level of people who are neurotypical.
- Jtsummers 3y ago
  "Content" is an assumption on your part. Higher tolerance for bullshit is also a plausible explanation. Or a difference in emotional intelligence and the corresponding understanding of (and willingness to play) the political game to get through the day. I'm not "content" with my management, but I know it's temporary and that I don't want to be unemployed in the interim and my pay is good enough that I'm not ready to nope out of here (if the pay was worse, or my fu funds weren't spent a couple years ago and not yet recovered, it would be a different situation).

fallingknife 3y ago

> and a parent understands dangers of the world that their young child literally can't comprehend As an adult I find that my perception of danger was actually much more correct as a child than the adults around me. They were, and are, paranoid and driven by moral panics. For some reason they were unable to comprehend that me walking a mile across an upper middle class suburb at 12 years old was perfectly safe, but I was. They feared edge case dangers like pedophiles and school shootings while us children made jokes about them. When there were a handful of shark attacks on the east coast and it made the news, the school banned students from swimming in the ocean on school trips. Driving for hours on the interstate was, of course, deemed safe as always.

ska 3y ago

To me, this sometimes seems like a first order response to a 2nd (or higher) order problem. Some neurodivergent people I've worked through this with have definitely unconsciously/consciously detected "red flags" and responded to them, but their modelling of what was going on was clearly reductive and sometimes obviously incorrect. I'm in no way suggesting it's universally true, but it's happened enough times to feel like it's likely, if that makes sense? Sometimes neurotypical people are seeing exactly the same data, but interpreting it differently.