3 ms·

>Then changing workplaces is equivalent to moving. For sure. And that's what you can do if you don't want to work for a company but have desired skills. >Ide

by robswc 3y ago

>Then changing workplaces is equivalent to moving. For sure. And that's what you can do if you don't want to work for a company but have desired skills. >Ideally, your union is supposed to fight against your boss for you. For sure. So my question is why are so many unions on twitter advocating for every social cause under the sun and encouraging people to build guillotines? I realize this is an extreme example but its no secret that unions are very leftist and active. >how is dealing with a union any different from dealing with the ad hoc cliques or unofficial software guilds, employee groups, etc. that spring up in a workplace? If you don't like those things, you can work at another place. I know office culture is part of every business but every business has a different culture. You can work in software without ever touching a defense company. In a world where there's only one or two software unions, those structures would be inescapable.

Apocryphon 3y ago
You seem to be confusing social media chatter, not even necessarily from official union accounts or union spokespeople, with actual union activity and messaging. > In a world where there's only one or two software unions, those structures would be inescapable. The concept of unions in the U.S. tech industry is completely nascent and up in the air at this moment. If anything, the proliferation of "Google union", "NYT union", a Kickstarter United etc. seem to indicate that it is unlikely there will be only one or two software unions. The idea that if (and it seems to be, as always, a very low-probability if) software unions do catch on, they will necessarily be identical to industrial unions of the past, seems fallacious to me. You would expect an industry that's all about innovation and experimentation to approach the problem of labor relations in a ways that's different from failed models of the past.
- robswc 3y ago
  Is this not an official account, controlled by CTULocal1? https://twitter.com/CTULocal1 https://twitter.com/CTULocal1 The union's website links to the account: https://www.ctulocal1.org/ https://www.ctulocal1.org/ (down at the bottom) >with actual union activity and messaging How am I supposed to know what is "actual activity and messaging?" >You would expect an industry that's all about innovation and experimentation to approach the problem of labor relations in a ways that's different from failed models of the past. That's fair. Intentions aren't consequences though. Some of the most well intentioned policies and regulations in Europe have the consequences of horrible tech salaries.
  - Apocryphon 3y ago
    Where's the guillotine tweet? I can grant such imagery might be severe and perhaps distasteful to those of certain sensibilities, but I hardly find it any more extreme than say when unions have giant blow up "Scabby the Rat" balloon figures. And this is a public sector union, they are not straight up advocating for revolutionary class war for crying out loud. > Intentions aren't consequences though. Some of the most well intentioned policies and regulations in Europe have the consequences of horrible tech salaries. I just want to see some experimentation and innovation in an industry that has an avowed commitment to such values. If there are consequences, then we will at least have proven so empirically.
    - robswc 3y ago
      >Where's the guillotine tweet? https://files.illinoispolicy.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/Screen-Shot-2020-08-31-at-11.19.13-AM.png https://files.illinoispolicy.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/... >And this is a public sector union, they are not straight up advocating for revolutionary class war for crying out loud They say "we're terrified but completely in support of wherever this is going" when people set up a device used exclusively for beheading humans. Whatever it is, it is ridiculous and a prime example of how you'll have to fight a war on two fronts if you don't agree with the union. >I just want to see some experimentation and innovation in an industry that has an avowed commitment to such values Anyone is free to start a software co-op and or experiment with different methods. I could agree in theory, but in practice, experimentation isn't free. I have family from eastern Europe that are still recovering from the "experimentation" that went on in the USSR.
      - Apocryphon 3y ago
        That tweet is very measured, mealy-mouthed millennial speak that's mildly approving. Social media account managers for activist groups have a tendency to amplify edginess, the heightening of passions is part of the job. But that sort of rhetoric is unlikely to be universal to all unions, and the point is if you don't like your union making such speak, you still have a voice to counteract it, just as you would if your company was engaged in a PR marketing campaign whose tenor you disagree with. > I have family from eastern Europe that are still recovering from the "experimentation" that went on in the USSR. We're talking about an industry that has been almost wholeheartedly scoffing at the idea of unions for decades. To suggest Kickstarter United is Finland Station is laughable. Agreed that software co-ops are something that should be attempted more. In fact, the presence of FOSS projects, hacker collectives, and the like would suggest that programmer self-governance is already popular in this industry. There is a very bottom-up, autonomy-focused culture in many aspects of software. Even the idea of quitting your pointy-headed boss to build your own startup is arguably in the same spirit. I'd go as far as saying that to attempt a software union is in the same spirit- as unionization has declined so much in the U.S. over past decades, let alone never been attempted in tech until recent years- it is an underdog, grassroots cause. Very far from the bureaucratic Kafka entity that anti-union critics like to invoke- this industry is so very far from such a leviathan! And remember, it was a labor union that ended the USSR's grip on Poland, leading to sweeping changes across the Eastern Bloc...

by robswc 3y ago

Apocryphon 3y ago

You seem to be confusing social media chatter, not even necessarily from official union accounts or union spokespeople, with actual union activity and messaging. > In a world where there's only one or two software unions, those structures would be inescapable. The concept of unions in the U.S. tech industry is completely nascent and up in the air at this moment. If anything, the proliferation of "Google union", "NYT union", a Kickstarter United etc. seem to indicate that it is unlikely there will be only one or two software unions. The idea that if (and it seems to be, as always, a very low-probability if) software unions do catch on, they will necessarily be identical to industrial unions of the past, seems fallacious to me. You would expect an industry that's all about innovation and experimentation to approach the problem of labor relations in a ways that's different from failed models of the past.

robswc 3y ago
Is this not an official account, controlled by CTULocal1? https://twitter.com/CTULocal1 https://twitter.com/CTULocal1 The union's website links to the account: https://www.ctulocal1.org/ https://www.ctulocal1.org/ (down at the bottom) >with actual union activity and messaging How am I supposed to know what is "actual activity and messaging?" >You would expect an industry that's all about innovation and experimentation to approach the problem of labor relations in a ways that's different from failed models of the past. That's fair. Intentions aren't consequences though. Some of the most well intentioned policies and regulations in Europe have the consequences of horrible tech salaries.
- Apocryphon 3y ago
  Where's the guillotine tweet? I can grant such imagery might be severe and perhaps distasteful to those of certain sensibilities, but I hardly find it any more extreme than say when unions have giant blow up "Scabby the Rat" balloon figures. And this is a public sector union, they are not straight up advocating for revolutionary class war for crying out loud. > Intentions aren't consequences though. Some of the most well intentioned policies and regulations in Europe have the consequences of horrible tech salaries. I just want to see some experimentation and innovation in an industry that has an avowed commitment to such values. If there are consequences, then we will at least have proven so empirically.
  - robswc 3y ago
    >Where's the guillotine tweet? https://files.illinoispolicy.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/Screen-Shot-2020-08-31-at-11.19.13-AM.png https://files.illinoispolicy.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/... >And this is a public sector union, they are not straight up advocating for revolutionary class war for crying out loud They say "we're terrified but completely in support of wherever this is going" when people set up a device used exclusively for beheading humans. Whatever it is, it is ridiculous and a prime example of how you'll have to fight a war on two fronts if you don't agree with the union. >I just want to see some experimentation and innovation in an industry that has an avowed commitment to such values Anyone is free to start a software co-op and or experiment with different methods. I could agree in theory, but in practice, experimentation isn't free. I have family from eastern Europe that are still recovering from the "experimentation" that went on in the USSR.
    - Apocryphon 3y ago
      That tweet is very measured, mealy-mouthed millennial speak that's mildly approving. Social media account managers for activist groups have a tendency to amplify edginess, the heightening of passions is part of the job. But that sort of rhetoric is unlikely to be universal to all unions, and the point is if you don't like your union making such speak, you still have a voice to counteract it, just as you would if your company was engaged in a PR marketing campaign whose tenor you disagree with. > I have family from eastern Europe that are still recovering from the "experimentation" that went on in the USSR. We're talking about an industry that has been almost wholeheartedly scoffing at the idea of unions for decades. To suggest Kickstarter United is Finland Station is laughable. Agreed that software co-ops are something that should be attempted more. In fact, the presence of FOSS projects, hacker collectives, and the like would suggest that programmer self-governance is already popular in this industry. There is a very bottom-up, autonomy-focused culture in many aspects of software. Even the idea of quitting your pointy-headed boss to build your own startup is arguably in the same spirit. I'd go as far as saying that to attempt a software union is in the same spirit- as unionization has declined so much in the U.S. over past decades, let alone never been attempted in tech until recent years- it is an underdog, grassroots cause. Very far from the bureaucratic Kafka entity that anti-union critics like to invoke- this industry is so very far from such a leviathan! And remember, it was a labor union that ended the USSR's grip on Poland, leading to sweeping changes across the Eastern Bloc...