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I solved that problem by moving. >You participate in the process to get things changed Will a union compensate you participating? Having to fight against bot

by robswc 3y ago

I solved that problem by moving. >You participate in the process to get things changed Will a union compensate you participating? Having to fight against both your boss _and_ union sounds like a nightmare.

Apocryphon 3y ago
Then changing workplaces is equivalent to moving. Ideally, your union is supposed to fight against your boss for you. I can understand the reluctance to deal with another structure. But when you get to the day-to-day impact, aside from the legal protections and membership dues and so forth, how is dealing with a union any different from dealing with the ad hoc cliques or unofficial software guilds, employee groups, etc. that spring up in a workplace? Or just dealing with rival teams or orgs jockeying for influence and power? You want to escape politics at the workplace altogether, become a freelancer.
- robswc 3y ago
  >Then changing workplaces is equivalent to moving. For sure. And that's what you can do if you don't want to work for a company but have desired skills. >Ideally, your union is supposed to fight against your boss for you. For sure. So my question is why are so many unions on twitter advocating for every social cause under the sun and encouraging people to build guillotines? I realize this is an extreme example but its no secret that unions are very leftist and active. >how is dealing with a union any different from dealing with the ad hoc cliques or unofficial software guilds, employee groups, etc. that spring up in a workplace? If you don't like those things, you can work at another place. I know office culture is part of every business but every business has a different culture. You can work in software without ever touching a defense company. In a world where there's only one or two software unions, those structures would be inescapable.
  - Apocryphon 3y ago
    You seem to be confusing social media chatter, not even necessarily from official union accounts or union spokespeople, with actual union activity and messaging. > In a world where there's only one or two software unions, those structures would be inescapable. The concept of unions in the U.S. tech industry is completely nascent and up in the air at this moment. If anything, the proliferation of "Google union", "NYT union", a Kickstarter United etc. seem to indicate that it is unlikely there will be only one or two software unions. The idea that if (and it seems to be, as always, a very low-probability if) software unions do catch on, they will necessarily be identical to industrial unions of the past, seems fallacious to me. You would expect an industry that's all about innovation and experimentation to approach the problem of labor relations in a ways that's different from failed models of the past.
    - robswc 3y ago
      Is this not an official account, controlled by CTULocal1? https://twitter.com/CTULocal1 https://twitter.com/CTULocal1 The union's website links to the account: https://www.ctulocal1.org/ https://www.ctulocal1.org/ (down at the bottom) >with actual union activity and messaging How am I supposed to know what is "actual activity and messaging?" >You would expect an industry that's all about innovation and experimentation to approach the problem of labor relations in a ways that's different from failed models of the past. That's fair. Intentions aren't consequences though. Some of the most well intentioned policies and regulations in Europe have the consequences of horrible tech salaries.
      - Apocryphon 3y ago
        Where's the guillotine tweet? I can grant such imagery might be severe and perhaps distasteful to those of certain sensibilities, but I hardly find it any more extreme than say when unions have giant blow up "Scabby the Rat" balloon figures. And this is a public sector union, they are not straight up advocating for revolutionary class war for crying out loud. > Intentions aren't consequences though. Some of the most well intentioned policies and regulations in Europe have the consequences of horrible tech salaries. I just want to see some experimentation and innovation in an industry that has an avowed commitment to such values. If there are consequences, then we will at least have proven so empirically.
        robswc 3y ago
        >Where's the guillotine tweet? https://files.illinoispolicy.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/Screen-Shot-2020-08-31-at-11.19.13-AM.png https://files.illinoispolicy.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/... >And this is a public sector union, they are not straight up advocating for revolutionary class war for crying out loud They say "we're terrified but completely in support of wherever this is going" when people set up a device used exclusively for beheading humans. Whatever it is, it is ridiculous and a prime example of how you'll have to fight a war on two fronts if you don't agree with the union. >I just want to see some experimentation and innovation in an industry that has an avowed commitment to such values Anyone is free to start a software co-op and or experiment with different methods. I could agree in theory, but in practice, experimentation isn't free. I have family from eastern Europe that are still recovering from the "experimentation" that went on in the USSR.
ryandrake 3y ago
> I solved that problem by moving. I guess that's one way to do it. I guess I optimistically believe we can do better than "Move to a dictator you like," either for town government or for employment.
- robswc 3y ago
  >I guess that's one way to do it. I guess I optimistically believe we can do better than "Move to a dictator you like," either for town government or for employment. In theory this is great. In practice, I realized there's just no way to compete with career politicians. I don't mean people like the Bushs or Clintons. I'm talking about spouses or people that can work 5-6 hours a day on local legislation when you are looking to just relax after your 9-5. And I mean really, what can a old-school Republican (not me) do if they live in the Bay Area? Realistically the only way they can feel represented, for better or worse, is by moving. I don't think that's the worst thing in the world either.
- chasd00 3y ago
  [flagged]

by robswc 3y ago

Apocryphon 3y ago

Then changing workplaces is equivalent to moving. Ideally, your union is supposed to fight against your boss for you. I can understand the reluctance to deal with another structure. But when you get to the day-to-day impact, aside from the legal protections and membership dues and so forth, how is dealing with a union any different from dealing with the ad hoc cliques or unofficial software guilds, employee groups, etc. that spring up in a workplace? Or just dealing with rival teams or orgs jockeying for influence and power? You want to escape politics at the workplace altogether, become a freelancer.

robswc 3y ago
>Then changing workplaces is equivalent to moving. For sure. And that's what you can do if you don't want to work for a company but have desired skills. >Ideally, your union is supposed to fight against your boss for you. For sure. So my question is why are so many unions on twitter advocating for every social cause under the sun and encouraging people to build guillotines? I realize this is an extreme example but its no secret that unions are very leftist and active. >how is dealing with a union any different from dealing with the ad hoc cliques or unofficial software guilds, employee groups, etc. that spring up in a workplace? If you don't like those things, you can work at another place. I know office culture is part of every business but every business has a different culture. You can work in software without ever touching a defense company. In a world where there's only one or two software unions, those structures would be inescapable.
- Apocryphon 3y ago
  You seem to be confusing social media chatter, not even necessarily from official union accounts or union spokespeople, with actual union activity and messaging. > In a world where there's only one or two software unions, those structures would be inescapable. The concept of unions in the U.S. tech industry is completely nascent and up in the air at this moment. If anything, the proliferation of "Google union", "NYT union", a Kickstarter United etc. seem to indicate that it is unlikely there will be only one or two software unions. The idea that if (and it seems to be, as always, a very low-probability if) software unions do catch on, they will necessarily be identical to industrial unions of the past, seems fallacious to me. You would expect an industry that's all about innovation and experimentation to approach the problem of labor relations in a ways that's different from failed models of the past.
  - robswc 3y ago
    Is this not an official account, controlled by CTULocal1? https://twitter.com/CTULocal1 https://twitter.com/CTULocal1 The union's website links to the account: https://www.ctulocal1.org/ https://www.ctulocal1.org/ (down at the bottom) >with actual union activity and messaging How am I supposed to know what is "actual activity and messaging?" >You would expect an industry that's all about innovation and experimentation to approach the problem of labor relations in a ways that's different from failed models of the past. That's fair. Intentions aren't consequences though. Some of the most well intentioned policies and regulations in Europe have the consequences of horrible tech salaries.
    - Apocryphon 3y ago
      Where's the guillotine tweet? I can grant such imagery might be severe and perhaps distasteful to those of certain sensibilities, but I hardly find it any more extreme than say when unions have giant blow up "Scabby the Rat" balloon figures. And this is a public sector union, they are not straight up advocating for revolutionary class war for crying out loud. > Intentions aren't consequences though. Some of the most well intentioned policies and regulations in Europe have the consequences of horrible tech salaries. I just want to see some experimentation and innovation in an industry that has an avowed commitment to such values. If there are consequences, then we will at least have proven so empirically.
      - robswc 3y ago
        >Where's the guillotine tweet? https://files.illinoispolicy.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/Screen-Shot-2020-08-31-at-11.19.13-AM.png https://files.illinoispolicy.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/... >And this is a public sector union, they are not straight up advocating for revolutionary class war for crying out loud They say "we're terrified but completely in support of wherever this is going" when people set up a device used exclusively for beheading humans. Whatever it is, it is ridiculous and a prime example of how you'll have to fight a war on two fronts if you don't agree with the union. >I just want to see some experimentation and innovation in an industry that has an avowed commitment to such values Anyone is free to start a software co-op and or experiment with different methods. I could agree in theory, but in practice, experimentation isn't free. I have family from eastern Europe that are still recovering from the "experimentation" that went on in the USSR.

ryandrake 3y ago

> I solved that problem by moving. I guess that's one way to do it. I guess I optimistically believe we can do better than "Move to a dictator you like," either for town government or for employment.

robswc 3y ago
>I guess that's one way to do it. I guess I optimistically believe we can do better than "Move to a dictator you like," either for town government or for employment. In theory this is great. In practice, I realized there's just no way to compete with career politicians. I don't mean people like the Bushs or Clintons. I'm talking about spouses or people that can work 5-6 hours a day on local legislation when you are looking to just relax after your 9-5. And I mean really, what can a old-school Republican (not me) do if they live in the Bay Area? Realistically the only way they can feel represented, for better or worse, is by moving. I don't think that's the worst thing in the world either.
chasd00 3y ago
[flagged]