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> America's global brain drain might have been the single most effective strategy that the planet has seen so far... > The only question is if the rest of the

> America's global brain drain might have been the single most effective strategy that the planet has seen so far... > The only question is if the rest of the world is going to wake up and counter this. Probably not. Simply put, there's no first-world country in the world where top talent can earn even close to a US salary, which largely due to the fact that US is relatively permissive towards large income disparities. Other countries "fixing" that would be politically infeasible.

tsunamifury 3y ago
Yet at the same time Liberal thought is the reason we have made such an incredible break thought in AI technology with the LLM. Quite literally the hippy movement lead to the open source movement lead to the internet lead to the LLM. So we have this seeming conundrum between little l and big L liberalism... ... im struggling with the realization that Liberalism the big idea is probably an afforded luxury ideal of the rich, as well as a runaway self-re-enforcing flywheel of wealth/advancement. I benefit from it, but fewer and fewer are going forward, while the US is simultaneously winning harder and harder. This is a nightmarish equation!
mazlix 3y ago
> Simply put, there's no first-world country in the world where top talent can earn even close to a US salary, which largely due to the fact that US is relatively permissive towards large income disparities. Why do you think it's A -> B and not B -> A? What factors of the US being permissive towards large income disparities do other nations lack that prevent them from paying equivalent salaries. One specific thing I've heard which makes sense to me toward explaining the salary gap is the US tends to have at-will employment while other nations make it more difficult to fire people. I wouldn't personally classify as promoting income disparity though.
- tsunamifury 3y ago
  It has an undeniable ability to draw the best talent away from Europe and Asia, who want to earn more. I have worked with armies of these people -- they left their home countries for the opportunity for the big check. And those checks are way past the disparity you describe from at will employment, this is 10x more not 1.4x more.
  - mikrotikker 3y ago
    This is why open borders and immigration is a right wing capitalist value and not a left wing one. Many left wing activists have fallen into this trap of towing the line of giant US corporations that strip the world of their human resource.
- paulddraper 3y ago
  > I wouldn't personally classify [at-will] as promoting income disparity though. Of course it is. Low-performers are fired from high-paid positions that high-performers keep. This translates performance disparities to income disparities. > What factors of the US being permissive towards large income disparities do other nations lack that prevent them from paying equivalent salaries. 1. At-will employment 2. Employer-provided benefits 3. Smaller safety net 4. Lower taxes 5. Fewer business regulations
howmayiannoyyou 3y ago
> largely due to the fact that US is relatively permissive towards large income disparities. Actually, its due to a shortage of highly skilled labor/specialists relative to demand. Europe benefits from more advanced math and programming talent as a result of Eastern European and Russian/Ukraine labor availability. US immigration policy puts America at a disadvantage in this regard - something they are weakly trying to address here. Sorry if that goes against your income inequality agenda.
- paulddraper 3y ago
  If you're crossing borders/languages, you're crossing borders/languages. Not sure why the barrier to using Eastern European talent would be appreciable different. (Time zones?) > income inequality agenda No agenda, just analysis. If you increase income inequality, the top earners can earn more.
  - pbmonster 3y ago
    > Not sure why the barrier to using Eastern European talent would be appreciable different. I mean, Poland, Czech Republic, Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria are all EU members, which means they have freedom of movement - they don't even require any visa or work permit. Just show up in Western Europe and work. The same is currently temporarily true for Ukrainians. Compare that to the extreme effort for them to get a green card in the US.
    - paulddraper 3y ago
      Thanks.
- dbish 3y ago
  Don’t you think if this were true there would be more breakout technical (and by extension startup) successes in Europe which doesn’t seem to be the case.
layer8 3y ago
At the same time, moving to the US is unattractive for a significant portion of the talent (not the least due to the US’ socio-cultural-political climate), and working remotely for a US company comes with its own difficulties.
- ibejoeb 3y ago
  There is unbridled immigration to the US. I truly can't think of a cohort for which the US is unattractive.
  - antisthenes 3y ago
    There are definitely small ideological, well-off pockets of Europeans, who enjoy living in high safety net countries and don't really want to trade one developed country for another. They don't necessarily have the skills to draw high US tech salaries either. But for the vast majority, like you said, the US is extremely attractive.
  - jltsiren 3y ago
    North/West European middle class, for example. I'm from Finland myself, I've been living in the US for some years, and I have no concrete plans to return. I've known many Finns who have tried the same, but most of them have returned to Finland, or at least to Europe. Most of them are highly educated professionals. It turns out the difference in standard of living is not that large. For most people, living closer to family and friends is more important. If they find a decent opportunity closer to home, they usually take it. You can see the same effect with Finnish nurses. They could improve their standard of living significantly by moving to Norway. Probably more than software engineers moving to the US. It would be easy, because Norway is close, the culture is pretty similar, and Finnish citizens have a subjective right to live and work there. But few people actually do that.
    - paulddraper 3y ago
      Fair enough. I'd hate move an hour away, let alone to another country. But for anyone that is able/willing to move....

tsunamifury 3y ago

Yet at the same time Liberal thought is the reason we have made such an incredible break thought in AI technology with the LLM. Quite literally the hippy movement lead to the open source movement lead to the internet lead to the LLM. So we have this seeming conundrum between little l and big L liberalism... ... im struggling with the realization that Liberalism the big idea is probably an afforded luxury ideal of the rich, as well as a runaway self-re-enforcing flywheel of wealth/advancement. I benefit from it, but fewer and fewer are going forward, while the US is simultaneously winning harder and harder. This is a nightmarish equation!

mazlix 3y ago

> Simply put, there's no first-world country in the world where top talent can earn even close to a US salary, which largely due to the fact that US is relatively permissive towards large income disparities. Why do you think it's A -> B and not B -> A? What factors of the US being permissive towards large income disparities do other nations lack that prevent them from paying equivalent salaries. One specific thing I've heard which makes sense to me toward explaining the salary gap is the US tends to have at-will employment while other nations make it more difficult to fire people. I wouldn't personally classify as promoting income disparity though.

tsunamifury 3y ago
It has an undeniable ability to draw the best talent away from Europe and Asia, who want to earn more. I have worked with armies of these people -- they left their home countries for the opportunity for the big check. And those checks are way past the disparity you describe from at will employment, this is 10x more not 1.4x more.
- mikrotikker 3y ago
  This is why open borders and immigration is a right wing capitalist value and not a left wing one. Many left wing activists have fallen into this trap of towing the line of giant US corporations that strip the world of their human resource.
paulddraper 3y ago
> I wouldn't personally classify [at-will] as promoting income disparity though. Of course it is. Low-performers are fired from high-paid positions that high-performers keep. This translates performance disparities to income disparities. > What factors of the US being permissive towards large income disparities do other nations lack that prevent them from paying equivalent salaries. 1. At-will employment 2. Employer-provided benefits 3. Smaller safety net 4. Lower taxes 5. Fewer business regulations

howmayiannoyyou 3y ago

> largely due to the fact that US is relatively permissive towards large income disparities. Actually, its due to a shortage of highly skilled labor/specialists relative to demand. Europe benefits from more advanced math and programming talent as a result of Eastern European and Russian/Ukraine labor availability. US immigration policy puts America at a disadvantage in this regard - something they are weakly trying to address here. Sorry if that goes against your income inequality agenda.

paulddraper 3y ago
If you're crossing borders/languages, you're crossing borders/languages. Not sure why the barrier to using Eastern European talent would be appreciable different. (Time zones?) > income inequality agenda No agenda, just analysis. If you increase income inequality, the top earners can earn more.
- pbmonster 3y ago
  > Not sure why the barrier to using Eastern European talent would be appreciable different. I mean, Poland, Czech Republic, Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria are all EU members, which means they have freedom of movement - they don't even require any visa or work permit. Just show up in Western Europe and work. The same is currently temporarily true for Ukrainians. Compare that to the extreme effort for them to get a green card in the US.
  - paulddraper 3y ago
    Thanks.
dbish 3y ago
Don’t you think if this were true there would be more breakout technical (and by extension startup) successes in Europe which doesn’t seem to be the case.

layer8 3y ago

At the same time, moving to the US is unattractive for a significant portion of the talent (not the least due to the US’ socio-cultural-political climate), and working remotely for a US company comes with its own difficulties.

ibejoeb 3y ago
There is unbridled immigration to the US. I truly can't think of a cohort for which the US is unattractive.
- antisthenes 3y ago
  There are definitely small ideological, well-off pockets of Europeans, who enjoy living in high safety net countries and don't really want to trade one developed country for another. They don't necessarily have the skills to draw high US tech salaries either. But for the vast majority, like you said, the US is extremely attractive.
- jltsiren 3y ago
  North/West European middle class, for example. I'm from Finland myself, I've been living in the US for some years, and I have no concrete plans to return. I've known many Finns who have tried the same, but most of them have returned to Finland, or at least to Europe. Most of them are highly educated professionals. It turns out the difference in standard of living is not that large. For most people, living closer to family and friends is more important. If they find a decent opportunity closer to home, they usually take it. You can see the same effect with Finnish nurses. They could improve their standard of living significantly by moving to Norway. Probably more than software engineers moving to the US. It would be easy, because Norway is close, the culture is pretty similar, and Finnish citizens have a subjective right to live and work there. But few people actually do that.
  - paulddraper 3y ago
    Fair enough. I'd hate move an hour away, let alone to another country. But for anyone that is able/willing to move....