4 ms·

>There needs to be a "software engineers union" or "Programmers Union" I honestly hate the idea of that. If you don't like Meta or Google, you don't have to w

by robswc 3y ago

>There needs to be a "software engineers union" or "Programmers Union" I honestly hate the idea of that. If you don't like Meta or Google, you don't have to work there. I know lots of people that don't like the "defense" industry because it contributes to building weapons, so they refuse to work at those companies. What recourse does an employee/member have if the union publicly supports setting up (mock) guillotines? https://files.illinoispolicy.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/Screen-Shot-2020-08-31-at-11.19.13-AM.png https://files.illinoispolicy.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/... What if you don't agree with their conduct or policies? You can't just go get another job if there's only one or two.

Apocryphon 3y ago
Same thing that happens if you don't agree with the democratic locality you live in. You participate in the process to get things changed.
- robswc 3y ago
  I solved that problem by moving. >You participate in the process to get things changed Will a union compensate you participating? Having to fight against both your boss _and_ union sounds like a nightmare.
  - Apocryphon 3y ago
    Then changing workplaces is equivalent to moving. Ideally, your union is supposed to fight against your boss for you. I can understand the reluctance to deal with another structure. But when you get to the day-to-day impact, aside from the legal protections and membership dues and so forth, how is dealing with a union any different from dealing with the ad hoc cliques or unofficial software guilds, employee groups, etc. that spring up in a workplace? Or just dealing with rival teams or orgs jockeying for influence and power? You want to escape politics at the workplace altogether, become a freelancer.
    - robswc 3y ago
      >Then changing workplaces is equivalent to moving. For sure. And that's what you can do if you don't want to work for a company but have desired skills. >Ideally, your union is supposed to fight against your boss for you. For sure. So my question is why are so many unions on twitter advocating for every social cause under the sun and encouraging people to build guillotines? I realize this is an extreme example but its no secret that unions are very leftist and active. >how is dealing with a union any different from dealing with the ad hoc cliques or unofficial software guilds, employee groups, etc. that spring up in a workplace? If you don't like those things, you can work at another place. I know office culture is part of every business but every business has a different culture. You can work in software without ever touching a defense company. In a world where there's only one or two software unions, those structures would be inescapable.
      - Apocryphon 3y ago
        You seem to be confusing social media chatter, not even necessarily from official union accounts or union spokespeople, with actual union activity and messaging. > In a world where there's only one or two software unions, those structures would be inescapable. The concept of unions in the U.S. tech industry is completely nascent and up in the air at this moment. If anything, the proliferation of "Google union", "NYT union", a Kickstarter United etc. seem to indicate that it is unlikely there will be only one or two software unions. The idea that if (and it seems to be, as always, a very low-probability if) software unions do catch on, they will necessarily be identical to industrial unions of the past, seems fallacious to me. You would expect an industry that's all about innovation and experimentation to approach the problem of labor relations in a ways that's different from failed models of the past.
        robswc 3y ago
        Is this not an official account, controlled by CTULocal1? https://twitter.com/CTULocal1 https://twitter.com/CTULocal1 The union's website links to the account: https://www.ctulocal1.org/ https://www.ctulocal1.org/ (down at the bottom) >with actual union activity and messaging How am I supposed to know what is "actual activity and messaging?" >You would expect an industry that's all about innovation and experimentation to approach the problem of labor relations in a ways that's different from failed models of the past. That's fair. Intentions aren't consequences though. Some of the most well intentioned policies and regulations in Europe have the consequences of horrible tech salaries.
  - ryandrake 3y ago
    > I solved that problem by moving. I guess that's one way to do it. I guess I optimistically believe we can do better than "Move to a dictator you like," either for town government or for employment.
    - robswc 3y ago
      >I guess that's one way to do it. I guess I optimistically believe we can do better than "Move to a dictator you like," either for town government or for employment. In theory this is great. In practice, I realized there's just no way to compete with career politicians. I don't mean people like the Bushs or Clintons. I'm talking about spouses or people that can work 5-6 hours a day on local legislation when you are looking to just relax after your 9-5. And I mean really, what can a old-school Republican (not me) do if they live in the Bay Area? Realistically the only way they can feel represented, for better or worse, is by moving. I don't think that's the worst thing in the world either.
    - chasd00 3y ago
      [flagged]
mrweasel 3y ago
> If you don't like Meta or Google, you don't have to work there. What does that have to do with the unions? The unions negotiate with an industry as a whole, never individual companies, that makes no sense. So a programmers union would ensure that you have the same rights regardless of whether you work for Meta, Google or Carl's Discount Software. > What recourse does an employee/member have if the union publicly supports setting up (mock) guillotines? They vote in the next union election and vote out who ever approved of that idea. That's also how you change conduct and policies. The point of the union is collective bargaining, so there's bound to be something you don't like, but that's the cost of being a democracy. You're not forced to be a member to work in an industry, but at least parts of your benefits and minimum salary may be negotiated by the union regardless.
- robswc 3y ago
  >What does that have to do with the unions? If there is just one "software engineer" union, if you work in software, you have to be part of that union. >So a programmers union would ensure that you have the same rights regardless of whether you work for Meta, Google or Carl's Discount Software. Exactly. That's the blessing and curse of monopoly. What if you feel the union isn't doing a good job of representing you? >They vote in the next union election and vote out who ever approved of that idea. So you're at the mercy of the 51%? >The point of the union is collective bargaining If that is all the unions did, I wouldn't be as weary. The problem is they do far more than that. >You're not forced to be a member to work in an industry, but at least parts of your benefits and minimum salary may be negotiated by the union regardless. >You're not forced to be a member to work in an industry Maybe in theory but in a world where there is only one software union for FAANG, that won't be the case.
  - ryandrake 3y ago
    > So you're at the mercy of the 51%? I guess I'd rather have a vote over my compensation and working conditions rather than having to negotiate it or "vote with my feet". Different strokes for different folks. For what it's worth I'm against mandatory union participation, but would almost certainly participate if I had the option.

by robswc 3y ago

Apocryphon 3y ago

Same thing that happens if you don't agree with the democratic locality you live in. You participate in the process to get things changed.

robswc 3y ago
I solved that problem by moving. >You participate in the process to get things changed Will a union compensate you participating? Having to fight against both your boss _and_ union sounds like a nightmare.
- Apocryphon 3y ago
  Then changing workplaces is equivalent to moving. Ideally, your union is supposed to fight against your boss for you. I can understand the reluctance to deal with another structure. But when you get to the day-to-day impact, aside from the legal protections and membership dues and so forth, how is dealing with a union any different from dealing with the ad hoc cliques or unofficial software guilds, employee groups, etc. that spring up in a workplace? Or just dealing with rival teams or orgs jockeying for influence and power? You want to escape politics at the workplace altogether, become a freelancer.
  - robswc 3y ago
    >Then changing workplaces is equivalent to moving. For sure. And that's what you can do if you don't want to work for a company but have desired skills. >Ideally, your union is supposed to fight against your boss for you. For sure. So my question is why are so many unions on twitter advocating for every social cause under the sun and encouraging people to build guillotines? I realize this is an extreme example but its no secret that unions are very leftist and active. >how is dealing with a union any different from dealing with the ad hoc cliques or unofficial software guilds, employee groups, etc. that spring up in a workplace? If you don't like those things, you can work at another place. I know office culture is part of every business but every business has a different culture. You can work in software without ever touching a defense company. In a world where there's only one or two software unions, those structures would be inescapable.
    - Apocryphon 3y ago
      You seem to be confusing social media chatter, not even necessarily from official union accounts or union spokespeople, with actual union activity and messaging. > In a world where there's only one or two software unions, those structures would be inescapable. The concept of unions in the U.S. tech industry is completely nascent and up in the air at this moment. If anything, the proliferation of "Google union", "NYT union", a Kickstarter United etc. seem to indicate that it is unlikely there will be only one or two software unions. The idea that if (and it seems to be, as always, a very low-probability if) software unions do catch on, they will necessarily be identical to industrial unions of the past, seems fallacious to me. You would expect an industry that's all about innovation and experimentation to approach the problem of labor relations in a ways that's different from failed models of the past.
      - robswc 3y ago
        Is this not an official account, controlled by CTULocal1? https://twitter.com/CTULocal1 https://twitter.com/CTULocal1 The union's website links to the account: https://www.ctulocal1.org/ https://www.ctulocal1.org/ (down at the bottom) >with actual union activity and messaging How am I supposed to know what is "actual activity and messaging?" >You would expect an industry that's all about innovation and experimentation to approach the problem of labor relations in a ways that's different from failed models of the past. That's fair. Intentions aren't consequences though. Some of the most well intentioned policies and regulations in Europe have the consequences of horrible tech salaries.
- ryandrake 3y ago
  > I solved that problem by moving. I guess that's one way to do it. I guess I optimistically believe we can do better than "Move to a dictator you like," either for town government or for employment.
  - robswc 3y ago
    >I guess that's one way to do it. I guess I optimistically believe we can do better than "Move to a dictator you like," either for town government or for employment. In theory this is great. In practice, I realized there's just no way to compete with career politicians. I don't mean people like the Bushs or Clintons. I'm talking about spouses or people that can work 5-6 hours a day on local legislation when you are looking to just relax after your 9-5. And I mean really, what can a old-school Republican (not me) do if they live in the Bay Area? Realistically the only way they can feel represented, for better or worse, is by moving. I don't think that's the worst thing in the world either.
  - chasd00 3y ago
    [flagged]

mrweasel 3y ago

> If you don't like Meta or Google, you don't have to work there. What does that have to do with the unions? The unions negotiate with an industry as a whole, never individual companies, that makes no sense. So a programmers union would ensure that you have the same rights regardless of whether you work for Meta, Google or Carl's Discount Software. > What recourse does an employee/member have if the union publicly supports setting up (mock) guillotines? They vote in the next union election and vote out who ever approved of that idea. That's also how you change conduct and policies. The point of the union is collective bargaining, so there's bound to be something you don't like, but that's the cost of being a democracy. You're not forced to be a member to work in an industry, but at least parts of your benefits and minimum salary may be negotiated by the union regardless.

robswc 3y ago
>What does that have to do with the unions? If there is just one "software engineer" union, if you work in software, you have to be part of that union. >So a programmers union would ensure that you have the same rights regardless of whether you work for Meta, Google or Carl's Discount Software. Exactly. That's the blessing and curse of monopoly. What if you feel the union isn't doing a good job of representing you? >They vote in the next union election and vote out who ever approved of that idea. So you're at the mercy of the 51%? >The point of the union is collective bargaining If that is all the unions did, I wouldn't be as weary. The problem is they do far more than that. >You're not forced to be a member to work in an industry, but at least parts of your benefits and minimum salary may be negotiated by the union regardless. >You're not forced to be a member to work in an industry Maybe in theory but in a world where there is only one software union for FAANG, that won't be the case.
- ryandrake 3y ago
  > So you're at the mercy of the 51%? I guess I'd rather have a vote over my compensation and working conditions rather than having to negotiate it or "vote with my feet". Different strokes for different folks. For what it's worth I'm against mandatory union participation, but would almost certainly participate if I had the option.