3 ms·

I wish I could give this move upvotes. Unions are labor monopolies, so there are a lot of missing positive incentives, while offering incentives for corruption

I wish I could give this move upvotes. Unions are labor monopolies, so there are a lot of missing positive incentives, while offering incentives for corruption. In the case of the UAW, it puts auto makers at a disadvantage because there's a single labor supplier they all buy from, so the supplier can play the automakers off each other. In the moment labor is currently having, you might argue that giving labor more power than business is good, but it's not; it's toxic to those businesses in the long term. You need balance between business and labor, and competing unions is a good way to solve this.

vkou 3y ago
> Unions are labor monopolies, so there are a lot of missing positive incentives, while offering incentives for corruption My employer has a monopoly on providing me with a paycheck, with tons of incentives for mistreatment and corruption. I'm told that if I dislike this, I should go find another job, or start my own company. Perhaps that could be the solution for someone who doesn't like their current job's union..?
- dehrmann 3y ago
  > My employer has a monopoly on providing me with a paycheck Unless you're an astronaut or something, no, they don't. Go interview somewhere else. Go drive an uber. There are lots of other places to get a paycheck.
  - vkou 3y ago
    Anyone unhappy with their union could take that same advice.
    - dehrmann 3y ago
      Suppose you're an autoworker in Michigan who doesn't like the UAW. Is there another similar union you can join?
      - vkou 3y ago
        Go interview somewhere else. Go drive an uber. There are lots of other places to get a paycheck. :)
        missedthecue 3y ago
        I don't get your argument. In this perspective, the union has the same problem that you accuse the company of having, but worse, because an autoworker has competition vying for his labor. GM, Ford, Stellantis, John Deere, Caterpillar, and all the other machinery manufacturers compete for his labor. But the union has no competition. In fact it's specifically exempt from anti-trust legislation.
        vkou 3y ago
        I get to vote on union policy, I don't get a vote in whatever idiotic policy-of-the-quarter some director five reporting levels above me decides to push, for his own self-serving interests. Those decisions are never data-driven, and are always some unholy amalgamation of industry-trend-chasing and some insane personal-politics-games that he's playing against his peers. My choices with a union are 'change it or take it, or leave it', my choices without a union are 'take it or leave it'. Flawed democracy versus flawed autocracy.
        missedthecue 3y ago
        This is neither here nor there. We are talking about monopolies. The fact that a given monopoly allows member voting does not change the fact that it's a monopoly, and carries with it all sorts of monopoly baggage, making it prone to corruption, mal-incentives, rent-seeking and other antisocial behaviour.
      - mrweasel 3y ago
        In some countries you can, but that assumes that your employer is willing to negotiate with the union instead. In Denmark how it normally works is that unions are specific for a given profession and a single union negotiate on behalf the employees in that profession, regardless of them being a member or not. If the majority of the employees where to go to another union, the employers could switch to negotiating with that union instead. For some professions people just negotiate their own salary, that is true of software developers for instance. Nurses on the other hand have their salary negotiated by the nurses union. It really depends on the type of work and how uniform it is or how poorly the employers behave. The US unions seems, from the outside, pretty immature and amateurishly run. They are to small, to narrow in focus, to expensive and poorly organization.

vkou 3y ago

> Unions are labor monopolies, so there are a lot of missing positive incentives, while offering incentives for corruption My employer has a monopoly on providing me with a paycheck, with tons of incentives for mistreatment and corruption. I'm told that if I dislike this, I should go find another job, or start my own company. Perhaps that could be the solution for someone who doesn't like their current job's union..?

dehrmann 3y ago
> My employer has a monopoly on providing me with a paycheck Unless you're an astronaut or something, no, they don't. Go interview somewhere else. Go drive an uber. There are lots of other places to get a paycheck.
- vkou 3y ago
  Anyone unhappy with their union could take that same advice.
  - dehrmann 3y ago
    Suppose you're an autoworker in Michigan who doesn't like the UAW. Is there another similar union you can join?
    - vkou 3y ago
      Go interview somewhere else. Go drive an uber. There are lots of other places to get a paycheck. :)
      - missedthecue 3y ago
        I don't get your argument. In this perspective, the union has the same problem that you accuse the company of having, but worse, because an autoworker has competition vying for his labor. GM, Ford, Stellantis, John Deere, Caterpillar, and all the other machinery manufacturers compete for his labor. But the union has no competition. In fact it's specifically exempt from anti-trust legislation.
        vkou 3y ago
        I get to vote on union policy, I don't get a vote in whatever idiotic policy-of-the-quarter some director five reporting levels above me decides to push, for his own self-serving interests. Those decisions are never data-driven, and are always some unholy amalgamation of industry-trend-chasing and some insane personal-politics-games that he's playing against his peers. My choices with a union are 'change it or take it, or leave it', my choices without a union are 'take it or leave it'. Flawed democracy versus flawed autocracy.
        missedthecue 3y ago
        This is neither here nor there. We are talking about monopolies. The fact that a given monopoly allows member voting does not change the fact that it's a monopoly, and carries with it all sorts of monopoly baggage, making it prone to corruption, mal-incentives, rent-seeking and other antisocial behaviour.
    - mrweasel 3y ago
      In some countries you can, but that assumes that your employer is willing to negotiate with the union instead. In Denmark how it normally works is that unions are specific for a given profession and a single union negotiate on behalf the employees in that profession, regardless of them being a member or not. If the majority of the employees where to go to another union, the employers could switch to negotiating with that union instead. For some professions people just negotiate their own salary, that is true of software developers for instance. Nurses on the other hand have their salary negotiated by the nurses union. It really depends on the type of work and how uniform it is or how poorly the employers behave. The US unions seems, from the outside, pretty immature and amateurishly run. They are to small, to narrow in focus, to expensive and poorly organization.