4 ms·

Software Engineers Union. Wow, never thought that would happen. Does it mean we are laborers now?

philipov 3y ago
Always have been.
greenie_beans 3y ago
wise up, your labor as a software engineer is being exploited! we are the laborers of the 21st century, building the future. if somebody tells you, "you're among the most privileged class of workers making a lot of money, you don't need a union," then kindly tell them to go fuck themselves. but seriously, we are all part of the working class regardless of income bracket, and that sort of thinking is intended to drive divisions in the working class so we don't have class solidarity. if you are a software engineer working for a salary, then the "value" you produce is captured by the owning class via free market transactions paying for whatever your labor produced, and thus you have an incentive to reclaim your stolen value as a laborer.
- gosub100 3y ago
  What if I don't want "solidarity" with inept coworkers, or fixed wages, or corrupt leaders? I think Amazon drivers and warehouse workers need unionization. They have been actively exploited for many years now and still don't have a voice. We live in paradise compared to them.
  - greenie_beans 3y ago
    the solidarity i'm describing would help you see how you have the same interests as an amazon driver or warehouse worker, except you get paid a lot more with better working conditions. your dissatisfaction with coworkers and leadership sound like interpersonal problems that will happen in any organization regardless of power structures.
    - gosub100 3y ago
      I agree with your first half: I have all the benefits that a union provides...Just without the "union" part and I like it that way.
      - Apocryphon 3y ago
        Do you have the power to negotiate for remote work, or to work somewhere without an open office floor plan? There are always areas to be improved upon, practices that management dictates by fiat and everyone accepts as "just the way things are" even if they don't like it.
        oh_sigh 3y ago
        Yes? You just get it okayed by your manager. And maybe their manager. That's all it's taken for me in the past.
        Apocryphon 3y ago
        There are modern software shops without open floor plans?
      - chasd00 3y ago
        don't fall for it, don't fall for > Do you have the power to negotiate for remote work, or to work somewhere without an open office floor plan? total bullshit. Unions protect incompetence and reward seniority only. I've never seen a union do otherwise.
        gosub100 3y ago
        There would be some really "interesting" technical consequences too. I think we'd commonly hear things like: "USW-local-42 has used TurboPascal since 1987, and it's worked _fine_ for every project ever since. Bob could have retired at 65, but he's 78 and he's taught thousands of underlings how to master the language. That project that took 12 years wasn't our fault, it was torpedoed when collective bargaining negotiations failed and our whole union had to learn C++. Keeping with the same language is a core tenet of our union and keeping people like bob among the most satisfied employees in $UNION_STATE." "We at USW-42 only connect to signed APIs from other union shops, we will not support FOSS unless the whole chain has been verified that it has been grown organically from employee-first union-run companies. I know that a 25ms auth check on each call is slowing us down, we have guys working on that. But the law about to pass is going to make it illegal to circumvent these checks. You got to remember, these checks help secure jobs, and there's always going to be trade offs. You can hire us to remove the API calls and re-write the software if you absolutely need that speed up, but for now, think of the children of all these union members who depend on your support and compliance".
- mvdtnz 3y ago
  > if somebody tells you, "you're among the most privileged class of workers making a lot of money, you don't need a union," then kindly tell them to go fuck themselves. We are though. And I don't want some asshole union giving it up for us. I can fend for myself.
  - zymhan 3y ago
    You didn't create the market conditions for IT to pay so well, and you never will on your own.
    - oh_sigh 3y ago
      Well, neither did unions. And as long as market conditions are great for the worker, I don't see much room to complain.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - chasd00 3y ago
    They want the dues, they want their slice of your pay! That's what union advocates are really after, power and money. Same as it ever was.
  - greenie_beans 3y ago
    read the last bit of that sentence you quoted
- chasd00 3y ago
  > if you are a software engineer working for a salary, then the "value" you produce is captured by the owning class so how do my RSUs and my 401k factor in to this?
  - greenie_beans 3y ago
    401k contribution is a wage, and i'm not an accountant but tech companies definitely negotiate RSUs like it's a wage. RSUs are a step in the right direction, but you're still getting ripped off if your only power is negotiating as an individual.
booleandilemma 3y ago
What makes you think we're not? Who's going to implement that next feature? You think it's gonna be the product owner?
paxys 3y ago
Did you ever think you weren't?

Always have been.

wise up, your labor as a software engineer is being exploited! we are the laborers of the 21st century, building the future. if somebody tells you, "you're among the most privileged class of workers making a lot of money, you don't need a union," then kindly tell them to go fuck themselves. but seriously, we are all part of the working class regardless of income bracket, and that sort of thinking is intended to drive divisions in the working class so we don't have class solidarity. if you are a software engineer working for a salary, then the "value" you produce is captured by the owning class via free market transactions paying for whatever your labor produced, and thus you have an incentive to reclaim your stolen value as a laborer.

gosub100 3y ago
What if I don't want "solidarity" with inept coworkers, or fixed wages, or corrupt leaders? I think Amazon drivers and warehouse workers need unionization. They have been actively exploited for many years now and still don't have a voice. We live in paradise compared to them.
- greenie_beans 3y ago
  the solidarity i'm describing would help you see how you have the same interests as an amazon driver or warehouse worker, except you get paid a lot more with better working conditions. your dissatisfaction with coworkers and leadership sound like interpersonal problems that will happen in any organization regardless of power structures.
  - gosub100 3y ago
    I agree with your first half: I have all the benefits that a union provides...Just without the "union" part and I like it that way.
    - Apocryphon 3y ago
      Do you have the power to negotiate for remote work, or to work somewhere without an open office floor plan? There are always areas to be improved upon, practices that management dictates by fiat and everyone accepts as "just the way things are" even if they don't like it.
      - oh_sigh 3y ago
        Yes? You just get it okayed by your manager. And maybe their manager. That's all it's taken for me in the past.
        Apocryphon 3y ago
        There are modern software shops without open floor plans?
    - chasd00 3y ago
      don't fall for it, don't fall for > Do you have the power to negotiate for remote work, or to work somewhere without an open office floor plan? total bullshit. Unions protect incompetence and reward seniority only. I've never seen a union do otherwise.
      - gosub100 3y ago
        There would be some really "interesting" technical consequences too. I think we'd commonly hear things like: "USW-local-42 has used TurboPascal since 1987, and it's worked _fine_ for every project ever since. Bob could have retired at 65, but he's 78 and he's taught thousands of underlings how to master the language. That project that took 12 years wasn't our fault, it was torpedoed when collective bargaining negotiations failed and our whole union had to learn C++. Keeping with the same language is a core tenet of our union and keeping people like bob among the most satisfied employees in $UNION_STATE." "We at USW-42 only connect to signed APIs from other union shops, we will not support FOSS unless the whole chain has been verified that it has been grown organically from employee-first union-run companies. I know that a 25ms auth check on each call is slowing us down, we have guys working on that. But the law about to pass is going to make it illegal to circumvent these checks. You got to remember, these checks help secure jobs, and there's always going to be trade offs. You can hire us to remove the API calls and re-write the software if you absolutely need that speed up, but for now, think of the children of all these union members who depend on your support and compliance".
mvdtnz 3y ago
> if somebody tells you, "you're among the most privileged class of workers making a lot of money, you don't need a union," then kindly tell them to go fuck themselves. We are though. And I don't want some asshole union giving it up for us. I can fend for myself.
- zymhan 3y ago
  You didn't create the market conditions for IT to pay so well, and you never will on your own.
  - oh_sigh 3y ago
    Well, neither did unions. And as long as market conditions are great for the worker, I don't see much room to complain.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- chasd00 3y ago
  They want the dues, they want their slice of your pay! That's what union advocates are really after, power and money. Same as it ever was.
- greenie_beans 3y ago
  read the last bit of that sentence you quoted
chasd00 3y ago
> if you are a software engineer working for a salary, then the "value" you produce is captured by the owning class so how do my RSUs and my 401k factor in to this?
- greenie_beans 3y ago
  401k contribution is a wage, and i'm not an accountant but tech companies definitely negotiate RSUs like it's a wage. RSUs are a step in the right direction, but you're still getting ripped off if your only power is negotiating as an individual.

booleandilemma 3y ago

What makes you think we're not? Who's going to implement that next feature? You think it's gonna be the product owner?

paxys 3y ago

Did you ever think you weren't?